A Way Beyond the Rainbow

#87 - For Imams, Chaplains and Community Leaders

March 21, 2022 Imam Dawud Walid and Waheed Jensen Season 5 Episode 22
A Way Beyond the Rainbow
#87 - For Imams, Chaplains and Community Leaders
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

This episode is a discussion with Imam Dawud Walid on the current challenges facing imams, chaplains and community leaders given the current global pro-LGBT socio-political climate, and how we, as Muslim communities, can help our imams and community leaders navigate these challenges so they can, in turn, effectively help their communities.

What are some of the struggles that imams and community leaders face in their mosques and communities as far as issues related to same-sex attractions or gender dysphoria? Why are imams scattered when it comes to these matters and not unified in their stance? What is the "jurisdiction" of imams and community leaders in that regard, and what is out of their league? How can we support our imams, chaplains and community leaders as we pave our way together amidst all of these challenges? These and other questions are explored in this episode.

Imam Dawud Walid's books:
- Towards Sacred Activism
-
Blackness and Islam
-
Centering Black Narrative: Black Muslim Nobles Among the Early Pious Muslims
-
Centering Black Narrative: Ahl al-Bayt, Blackness & Africa

Waheed  00:37
Assalamu alaikom warahmatullahi ta’ala wabarakatuh, and welcome back to “A Way Beyond the Rainbow”, this podcast series dedicated to Muslims experiencing same-sex attractions who want to live a life true to Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala and Islam. I'm your host, Waheed Jensen, and thank you for joining me in today's episode. 

So far, in the past couple of episodes, the content has been dedicated to the wider community. So we've had a series of episodes for parents and family members, as well as spouses, and most recently for educators, teachers and school administrators. And with today's episode, we wrap up this entire series, and we're going to be addressing, inshaAllah, imams, chaplains and community leaders. Joining me in today's episode is Imam Dawud Walid all the way from Michigan, United States. 

And a brief bio about my guest speaker today: Imam Dawud Walid is currently the Executive Director of the Michigan chapter of the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR). He's a member of the Michigan Muslim Community Council - Imams Committee and a senior fellow at Auburn Seminary based in New York. Imam Dawud served as an imam at Masjid Wali Muhammad in Detroit and the Bosnian American Islamic Center in Michigan. He is the author of the book Blackness and Islam as well as the book Towards Sacred Activism, and he is a co-author of the books Centering Black Narrative: Black Muslim Nobles Among the Early Pious Muslims, and Centering Black Narrative: Ahl al-Bayt, Blackness & Africa. Imam Dawud has lectured at over 100 institutions of higher learning in North America, Great Britain and West Africa about Islam and social justice. He has also been interviewed and quoted in approximately 150 media outlets ranging from the New York Times, Wall St. Journal National Public Radio, CNN, BBC, Fox News and Al-Jazeera. 

In today's episode, inshaAllah, Imam Dawud and I are going to be talking about his experience with the LGBT matter from an Islamic perspective. We're going to be talking about the struggles that a lot of imams, chaplains and community leaders face nowadays given the current global pro-LGBT sociopolitical climate. We're going to be talking about what Imams and community leaders need from the Muslim community, and what they can provide Muslims, particularly those who struggle with same-sex attractions or gender dysphoria, as well as their parents, families, and the broader community, inshaAllah. This is a rich discussion, and I hope that you enjoy it, inshaAllah. Just an FYI, this episode was recorded in December of 2021. So let's get started, inshaAllah.

03:30
Assalamu alaikom, Imam Dawud. 

Imam Dawud  03:31
Wa alaikom assalam warahmatullahi wabarakatuh.

Waheed  03:34
It's an honor to be having you today on the podcast, I've heard so much about you, and I'm very excited to have you as a guest speaker. I know that a lot of the listeners are very excited to be listening to you today, so jazak Allah khairan for joining me, I really look forward to this episode.

Imam Dawud  03:49
Wa iyyak. It's a pleasure being on and, bi ‘ithn Allah ta’ala, there'll be some benefit that comes out of our discussion. 

Waheed  03:56
InshaAllah, we hope so, inshaAllah. So, before we start, we have a very rich set of questions, but before we dive into the topic, I'd like to ask you to introduce yourself to our audience, to tell us a little bit about yourself if you can.

Imam Dawud  04:13
Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Raheem, alhamdulillah, wa salla Allah ala Sayyidina Muhammad wa ‘ala aalihi wa sahbihi wa sallam. Well, firstly, it’s your brother Dawud with you. I am a member of the Imams Council of Michigan, and also a senior fellow at the Auburn seminary that's based in New York City. I reside outside of Metro Detroit. I've also been involved in activism and community organizing as a director of one of the branches of CAIR; I'm the Executive Director of the Michigan chapter of the Council on American Islamic Relations. I've served in different capacities in the community, including being a board member of the Metropolitan Detroit Interfaith Workers Rights Committee. Also, I'm an author and co-author of some books; I co-authored two books with Sidi Ahmad Mubarak: One entitled Centering Black Narrative: Black Muslim Nobles Among the Early Pious Muslims, and also Centering Black Narrative: Ahl al-Bayt, Blackness & Africa. And I'm the author of the books Towards Sacred Activism, Blackness and Islam, and a book that is coming out December of this year 2021 entitled Futuwwah and Raising Males into Sacred Manhood.

Waheed  05:44
MashaAllah, that is amazing. That is a very relevant book to our topic, MashaAllah. And all of them are very relevant, and we will add all of these resources in the episode description for the audience to check them out, inshaAllah. And I'd like to ask you in particular about the last two books that you mentioned, mainly Towards Sacred Activism, as well as the new upcoming book, can you tell us more about those? 

Imam Dawud  06:11
Towards Sacred Activism, which has been out now for almost about three years, is a type of primer, and a class was built around it in regards to giving advice and some suggestions for Muslims in the West who are involved in community organizing and activism, primarily as it relates to issues that are called “social justice issues”. So, that is what Towards Sacred Activism is about, giving some definitions, and then, also, one of the chapters is, using as a case study, we can say, navigating through contentions of LGBTQ engagement, trying to give advice for Muslims not to go too far to the right, nor too far to the left, as far as this particular issue. Because there is this issue amongst some people who seek to dehumanize people with same-sex attraction and gender dysphoria, so we definitely don't want to go down that road. So, my book was trying to give guidance on that. 

And then the second book that is just coming out, Futuwwah and Raising Males into Sacred Mahood, is a part of a larger project that will be coming out as far as the revival of sacred chivalry, or Islamic chivalry, amongst our young men. We have issues in the West, more so - I'm familiar with America, though I have spent time in UK - of a crisis of males growing up to being responsible men. So, again, in our community, we have two extremes that need balancing as it relates toward tarbiyah (upbringing) and organized activities for young men. On the one hand, we have men that try to act like brutes and bullies or tyrants as it relates to dealing with women. Then you have another extreme where you have young men who are completely passive, lack initiative, lack the will to take on responsibility, or what we call in the African American community, “Mama's boys”, delayed adolescence, and really lack any type of manly initiative and to take responsibility. So, you know, this is an effort and an attempt to try to bring back wasatiyyah, or balance, in regards to sacred manhood according to following the uswatun hasana (perfect example) of our beloved prophet (PBUH).

Waheed  09:19
That is brilliant, MashaAllah. I mean, I've heard about Towards Sacred Activism, and, inshaAllah, I'm looking forward to reading that. But now your new book is something that must also be read by all of us, subhan Allah, because this is a topic that's come up on the podcast continuously, particularly for men who struggle with same-sex attractions. And we've spoken a lot about this. Having a positive male role model in our lives, and we've spoken about the Prophet (PBUH) as being that, and the Sahabah (Companions). But, nowadays, there is that struggle, because, unfortunately, a lot of us struggle with having either an absent father figure or a negative father figure. And we always yearn towards that utopian or idealistic version of the male who would actually take us by the hand and guide us on the Righteous Path, and instill in us the values of Islam, subhan Allah. So that is, I mean, I'm so happy that you've written that book, and I really look forward to reading that, jazak Allah khair. 

You said that, in Towards Sacred Activism, in the book, you've taken the case of the LGBT and how to be balanced in that approach, and, inshaAllah, we'll talk about this during this podcast. But before we dive into that, I'd like to ask you about your experience so far, as Imam Dawud, dealing with the LGBT matter from an Islamic perspective, what can you share with us?

Imam Dawud  10:39
Well, I've had on a couple of occasions, a couple of brothers who have confided in me that they were dealing with the issues of same-sex attraction. One of them, actually, was cohabitating with another man, and they were old in the relationship, who was a Muslim cohabitating with a Christian. And so I was brought forth and asked to give advice in regards to these two individuals. But in regards to this issue of same-sex attraction, and also gender dysphoria, I really haven't been confronted in my area, in Metro Detroit, with many people who have come to me, or in the Imams Council, we really haven't had the issue of many young men or women coming to us with this issue. Part of it could be that some of these individuals, be the younger or older, don't feel comfortable coming to Shuyukh out of fear of the reaction, as far as it being harsh or being chided, or maybe even being exposed. That could be one issue. 

And then, on the other hand, it could be a particular point that, in my area, maybe it is a smaller minuscule percentage of the population of the Muslim community who's actually dealing with this issue. Therefore, it's not really something that's on what we could say the “front burner” or on the list of priorities that imams are really having to deal with in our community. I know, from my perspective and what I deal with, the issue of drug abuse, and also young Muslim selling drugs, is at a much higher priority in our Imams Council, for instance, than the issue of same-sex attraction and gender dysphoria, including those issues in the political realm. 

So, that's just generally how I've dealt with the issue. And more of what I've dealt, to be frank, Br. Waheed, is activists and community organizers, from not just the States but in Canada and Western Europe, going from the Netherlands and Sweden, have even contacted me and asked questions about “I'm dealing with these issues on the ground X, Y, Z, and please give me some advice about how to deal with Muslims who are involved in politics”, who are actually promoting the entire, what we would call, “progressive agenda” in America, which includes same-sex attraction and gender dysphoria. That's been more of the issue that I've had to give naseeha (advice) about, overwhelmingly more so than Muslim struggling with those trials.

Waheed  14:18
So, if I were to ask you, what are those struggles that you have faced, or that you face, or the struggles that the Imams Council also faces when it comes to dealing with these particular issues, given the current global, pro-LGBT sociopolitical climate? And here I'm asking from the perspective of an imam or a community leader or a chaplain, what have you experienced, and what have your colleagues in the Imams Council and your other colleagues or contacts experienced as far as the struggle in dealing with this issue, maybe being vocal about it, maybe some backlash on your particular position? Or maybe have you faced particular backlash when it comes to the material that you have written in the book Towards Sacred Activism? What can you tell us about that?

Imam Dawud  15:07
Oh, well, let's start backwards in regards to the content of Towards Sacred Activism, really, I have met virtually no backlash inside the Muslim community in America, in regards to how I broached the topic. For whatever reason, I have not. But in regards to the Imams Council, and myself being a part of it, I've seen this more of a struggle of Imams who are immigrants, and from the Arab world or South Asia, in dealing with people of their generation of other immigrants. The issue of talking about same-sex attraction and gender dysphoria being promoted in political realms is a more black-and-white, clear-cut issue for many of the people who emigrated from places like Pakistan or Yemen. There really isn't, I mean, it's very clear-cut in their minds. 

What the issue becomes more difficult is younger people who are born or raised here in the Western context, who have gone to school with people who have identified as lesbian or gay, and the people who identify this way and dealt with it have treated them kindly, have treated them with a level of respect. And especially when we're talking about America post 9/11 and the amount of anti-Muslim bigotry. So, it becomes a mushkila, or a problem, in many young Muslims’ minds that has to be discussed, where they say, “Well, these people, they treat us kindly, they treat us nice, or they've been our allies against ‘Islamophobia’”, so because of the good feelings that they've had, and really recognizing the humanity of individuals who identify with this, they then feel like emotionally obligated to be there and to help those who identify as LGBTQ, to the point of not just defending them when people bully or use insensitive language, but to even promote their political agenda and celebrate it. 

To navigate those is very difficult, because, then, it's not a discussion about what the texts say, or what even defines objective truth according to Islamic theology, but it then becomes something that is emotional and very subjective. And that is more difficult to navigate with many people and to engage them on that within our community.

Waheed  18:21
Right, perfectly understandable. So can you give us an example of how you personally dealt with that, if you have already? Like, how would you steer the direction of the discussion, and how would you try to - as you said, in your book, you try to take a more balanced approach, not too right-leaning or too left-leaning, more of an Islamically moderate approach, how do you try to maintain that in your discussions? Or maybe try to convince the other side that, “Okay, well, I understand where you're coming from, but, you know, let's discuss things in a different way, and maybe navigate the whole issue in a different direction.” Can you give us an example of like, what are some arguments or counter arguments or suggestions that you would use? Because a lot of us listening are dealing with that on a daily basis, subhan Allah, and it's a huge fitna (point of contention) for a lot of us.

Imam Dawud  19:10
Okay, so I can give you a contemporary example when I had to discuss a couple of months ago with some of our youth in the area that I live in, which is a western suburb of the city of Detroit. So, the school board, within the past year, they approved that young people in school can use whatever washrooms and locker rooms that they choose according to their self-identified gender - which means someone identifying as gender fluid, for instance, they can use the male bathroom this month, but if they feel like a female the next month, they then can use the female washrooms and locker rooms. So, this is an issue. 

So, we had some people and some young people come to us kind of like struggling with this, or saying, “Well, you know, why is it that people can't use the locker rooms or the washrooms that they want to?” And I've centered it back to not even just what we would call a primarily religious argument, but for centering that, in the United States of America, we have the Bill of Rights, and in the Constitution is the First Amendment, and within the First Amendment, freedom of religion is basically sacrosanct in the American Constitution. And what I've explained to them is that, when it comes to the issue of gender fluidity and someone just choosing whatever bathroom or locker room, that I, as an Imam, and as a community activist, am not going to promote something that's based upon feelings with usurps or undermines the First Amendment protected religious rights of my community for Muslims. Because what this does is, if someone is gender fluid and can use whatever washroom or locker room that they want, including showers, this would then make it impossible for our sisters to be able to take off their hijab, to be able to even make wudu’ (ablution) in such spaces, or to be able to change, because their awra’ (intimate parts) would be exposed to an individual who is basically going back and forth with their gender identity, and we have our fiqh, which is unanimous on this particular issue. 

But more so, from a civil rights perspective, this is a First Amendment protected activity, and, at least in the American Constitution, I know there's different laws in Western Europe, especially in France, which is probably the most egregious, but I say that, you know, as Muslims, we're not obligated that, in order to “show solidarity”, that we're going to undermine our own civil rights and our own standing in civil society, just to be in so-called “allyship” with other people. No intelligent group of people is going to take away or forfeit their legal civil rights that relate to their sacred beliefs in order to accommodate someone else's feelings. So that's the way that I had that discussion. 

Waheed  23:02
Brilliant, jazak Allah khairan. And you elaborate more on this in your book, obviously, but can you share with us some snippets of some of the arguments that you make with regards to the case of the LGBT, particularly staying in the moderate zone, so to speak, and not being too right-leaning or left-leaning, for our audience members? I mean, I encourage everyone to buy the book and read it, for sure we're going to do that, inshaAllah. But what can you share with us, particular perspectives from the book that we can make use of, inshaAllah?

Imam Dawud  23:32
Okay, so let me say that since the book is talking about activism and community organizing, I don't deal with, at all, any theories or any explanations of what triggers the shahwa, or the appetites, for same-sex attraction. I don't deal with that at all - whether it's something that is hormonal, something that is triggered through environment, something that's triggered through trauma or abuse, I don't deal with that at all in my text. So, I want to be very clear about that. 

What I am dealing with is the issue of trying to give a framework within the Sacred Law in which we should operate, that’s based upon our sacred principles, as Muslims, and not necessarily how other people identify. So, for instance, if we give the example of saying like, there is such a thing in the American society, of bullying, of people being bullied physically, of things called “hate crimes”. I'm very clear that when it comes to a type of coalition, we're standing up for people's rights not to be bullied in school, or not to be harmed on the streets, that Muslims should have absolutely no problem in standing up for the rights of the physical safety for anyone travailing in civil society, including those people who openly declare that they have gender dysphoria or same-sex attraction. 

This is very clear, Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala said, "ولا تقتلوا النفس التي حرّم الله ألا بالحق" - no one can harm or kill another person unjustifiably (Qur’an 17:33), irrespective of what type of behavior that they are involved in in their personal life. So I'm very clear about that. So we treat everyone with their ihtiram (respect) that Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala gave them, that everyone was created with intrinsic dignity, "ولقد كرّمنا بني آدم" - “Indeed, We have dignified the children of Adam” (Qur’an, 17:70). And we treat everyone with the honor and dignity that Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala gave them as human beings, and we don't transgress upon their human rights that Allah gave, because human rights are bestowed by Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala, not by governments; civil rights are that which are given by governments. Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala gives human rights. 

Now, at the same time, when it comes to an issue in which it is beyond the preservation of general dignity and human rights of an individual, of not being harmed, of not being bullied, to be able to have access to work in the public sector, to have the right to general health care, things outside of that, in which we are trying to promote or celebrate certain behaviors that Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala has prohibited, and that we're supposed to struggle against, that is the cutoff point. So, like, for example, we have issues here called “Pride Parades”. There's a difference between standing at a press conference and saying, “People who identify with same-sex attraction shouldn't be killed”, like at the Pulse Nightclub that took place in Florida years ago, that should be made clear that we are against that type of violence, even though the killer himself was struggling with same-sex attraction himself. But on the other hand, we're not supposed to be the grandmasters in leading the Pride Parade in saying “Love is love” and waving the rainbow flag. Now, that would be part of الأمر بالمنكر - that is enjoining the prohibited, and we are clearly told by Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala that we can't do that: "ولا تركنوا للذين ظلموا فتمسّكم النار" – “Don’t incline and promote that which the wrongdoers do, lest you shall touch the fire” (Qur’an 11:113). So we can't go out celebrating that. 

And, unfortunately, we've had some activists and politicians who are Muslims in America, Canada and Britain, who have who have actually done that. So they've taken the position beyond just protecting people's general human dignity or access to health care, to be able to have housing, or not to be bullied or be victims of hate crime, and they've taken it to an extreme to the left. So we can't go too far to the right nor to the left. "وكذلك جعلناكم أمة وسطاً", Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala says that we're supposed to take the middle ground (Qur’an 2:143), and the middle ground is defined by the Qur’an and Sunnah. So that's basically kind of like what I mentioned in that chapter, if we're talking about extremes to the right and extremes to the left, and then, you know, the middle ground.

Waheed  29:27
When it comes to, in general, I mean, you're in the US, you probably know that a lot of imams and community leaders are scattered when it comes to this issue of LGBT politics and social movements, etc. And this creates a lot of dissonance for people, whether they are themselves struggling with same-sex attractions or gender dysphoria, or their parents and family members, or the teachers, whoever it is, you know, the issue is very polarized. So, my question is, why aren't imams, in general, unified when it comes to this issue? Why are they scattered? A lot of them don't speak about it, others are vocal. But even those who are vocal, you see a lot of them are either extremely right-leaning, others are extremely left-leaning, and only a few are kind of in the middle, as far as we see, Allahu a’alam, I mean, this is my perception, your perception might actually be different. So I'm just trying to ask about why can't Imams or community leaders be unified when it comes to this matter, and how do we deal with this as communities?

Imam Dawud  30:32
Well, the issue of so-called LGBTQ engagement and why we are scattered is not really about the issue itself, it’s a symptom of a greater problem that we have. And the issue that we are struggling with, at least in the North American context, is that we have a lack of, or I can say, we have a crisis of authority within the Muslim community. So we have what we could call, because of our crisis of authority and a lack of organization, that basically we're scattered and we're everywhere. 

I was just in Morocco, recently, I was explaining this to one of the descendants of the Dabbagh family, of Sidi Abdulaziz Dabbagh, just recently when I was there, I explained to him that, in America, like let's say my city in Detroit, there's like 80 masajid. We have almost every type of movement that is in the Muslim world and its various expressions we have here: We have people who identify as Jama’atul Tableegh, or Deobandis, we have people who are in different turuq of Sufism, we Najdis or so-called Salafis, Twelver Shia’s, etc. We have everything here. We can't even coordinate on starting the fast of Ramadan and having Eid on the same day. We even had a situation where we Fitr Eid on three different days here once. 

So the issue of LGBTQ engagement, or why we are scattered, it is just a symptom of a broader problem of a crisis of leadership, and because we can't unify on some very basic things, then the mashakil (problems) that are even more contentious, those are even harder to have a common language for, which then leaves many Muslims who are of the ‘awam (lay people) - for lack of a better term - not knowing who to turn to for the authoritative position on how we should deal with contentious issues such as so-called LGBTQ engagement.

Waheed  33:19
It makes a lot of sense, actually. So, in this case, what would you advise those ‘awam or lay people, like myself, who want to actually have proper advice on this matter, because of the polarized community or the different authorities, or the lack thereof? What would you give us, as advice, in this case?

Imam Dawud  33:39
Well, what I would say is that, before looking outside your locality, to try to find in your locality a teacher or a Shaykh who you generally know to be upright, and to sit in their classes, and actually to try to learn general knowledge and to sit with them. And then, at least if you trust this person's knowledge, that they're upright, and they have a level of, what we could say, if you sense in this individual - male or female - a level of ta’atuf, or empathy, then you begin to open up and ask certain questions about how to navigate these things. But I am not a proponent of people going outside their locality first before trying to cultivate a relationship with a local Ustadh/a or a local Shaykh. And I definitely warn Muslims against trying to defer your questions to so-called “celebrity Imams” or “celebrity speakers”. I highly caution against that type of phenomenon. I'm not sure about the UK, but in America, we have celebrity speakers, or celebrity imams. And, in navigating these issues, that might be the worst person to get advice from, because these individuals may not take a definitive stand on anything that may put them in jeopardy to get their invites to the major conferences, and to the centers, and to be able to speak on this panel or that panel. So, they're kind of chilled in the sense of speaking with authority on a lot of these difficult issues. 

And, of course, I'm sure some of you saw what happened to Dr. Yasir Qadhi. He was disinvited from a program in the UK, it had nothing to do with same-sex attraction or gender dysphoria, simply because he just took a very moderate mainstream position in something that he wrote, and that was looked up and he was cancelled. So there are others who saw what happened to Dr. Qadhi (may Allah protect him), I have a lot of respect for him, we're on very good and friendly terms. So, you know, people know what happened to Dr. Qadhi. And there's going to be some of these other people who are popular, who want to keep on getting invited to where they have to speak for their da’wah, so they're not going to keep it real on some of these issues.

Waheed  36:31
Right, of course, and they want to keep their followers and their status on social media. So, for sure, it's going to jeopardize that if they're going to be adopting the mainstream position, just like Imam Yasir Qadhi did. Barak Allah feek for bringing that up, for sure. 

Now, if want to get a little bit personal, you said at the beginning of this episode, you mentioned that you don't really have a lot of interactions with individuals who come to you and say, “We struggle with same-sex attractions or gender dysphoria”, you have more experience dealing with activists from different countries of the world. But, you know, if you've had a few interactions, or maybe your colleagues in the Imams Council, how do you as an imam or community leader deal with men and women who struggle with same-sex attractions and/or gender dysphoria who might approach you for guidance and support, maybe ask you about resources? Or maybe if you've had like parents of those individuals, or family members of those individuals who approach you for guidance, who may open their hearts to you and ask you for support? Because it's very difficult to navigate that, particularly in Western countries. What advice would you give them? What resources would you give them, or maybe some projects or initiatives that you would mention?

Imam Dawud  37:53
Okay, so there's general advice that I give, and then there's also referrals. So I'll start with the referral. So, I am not a licensed counselor, nor am I a psychologist. There have been a couple of cases where I have referred them to counselors or psychologists who are not just rooted in western epistemology of secular psychology, but also who I trust their Islamic knowledge. And I say that because we have a belief in objective truth starting with the Qur’an. And, just generally speaking, when it comes to psychology, social work or secular sociology, they're starting from a different place from us, which may lead to some different conclusions, right? 

So, for instance, just as a quick example, haya’ (modesty or shame), there are people now who are publicly saying, “People shouldn't have shame (modesty)” or “Shame (modesty) is a bad thing”. Well, the Prophet (PBUH) said, "الحياء من الإيمان" i.e. to have modesty or shame is from faith, and that if a person doesn't have shame (modesty), they'll do whatever they want. You know, so we are supposed to have shame in front of Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala. That's just like a small example. 

So, I am not trained in getting into like diagnosing or trying to counsel people because of what took place in their childhood or whether they were abused or whatever. That's not my cup of tea, and I think all imams need to know their limitations. And I also tell the community “Don't expect the imam to be an expert on everything, just because they studied Shari’a or studied fiqh or hadith.” The Imam is not the one-stop shop. What I have told people is that sexual desire, in general, is from the shahawat. And after our desires or carnal appetites for drinking water and for food, that sexual desires, especially within a certain age starting from puberty, and then going up to like around the age of 40, this is when it is the strongest amongst people. And like all shahawat, there are spiritual remedies or ways that we're supposed to operate in, to struggle against our shahawat. So I mentioned some of those things, like regular recitation of the Qur'an, of having a wird (litany) or having regular athkar (litany of remembrance) of Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala, of regular fasting outside the month of Ramadan on Mondays and Thursdays, and also the illuminated days or al-ayyam al-beed

And this is part of the meaning of ayah of the Qur'an "يا أيها الذين آمنوا استعينوا بالصبر والصلاة٬ إن الله مع الصابرين" – “O you who have believed, seek help through patience and prayer. Indeed, Allah is with the patient” (Qur’an, 2:153). And patience, in this ayah, our scholars have said means fasting, it means sawm, and prayer, which is also the next thing of making tahajjud (supererogatory night prayer), waking up and making tahajjud. So if we are involved in struggle in the day and in the night, in getting outside of our comfort zones and disciplining ourselves, then this will help us in disciplining how we react when different desires come into our hearts. So we don't have control many times over the thoughts that come into our inner beings, of course, the shayateen amongst the jinn and the men will whisper to us, but we do have control over not accepting that and struggling against that in the heart, and then acting upon it. And I give the same advice to young men - I haven't had young women come to me, but young men who come to me - struggling with opposite-gender attraction, when they're in their teens, and they are not able to get married, for whatever reason. And, you know, zina (fornication) is part of American culture, it's in the music, it’s in the movies, it’s on billboards. So, everything calls us towards those things, and we have to take the steps to struggle against the shahwa (desire), and this starts with spiritual exercises and spiritual remedies. 

So that is just general advice for struggling against the shahwa, and that applies to the young person who is seeking to fulfill their shahwa based upon opposite-gender attraction or same-gender attraction.

Waheed  43:41
Right. Barak Allah feek. And with regards to parents or family members who might approach you and would give that same advice, obviously, for their kids, but is there anything else that you would also offer them?

Imam Dawud  43:52
Well, what I would say for the parents if they have children who have come to them and that are struggling with this, like any other issue that a young person may be struggling with, not to disown one's children or to basically treat them like a Kleenex tissue that has snot in it that can be thrown away. That's not the position that we should be taking as parents. And I have children, my eldest being 20 years old. And, you know, children go through things, and young people go through things on different levels. And just as you would not want to enable your child who’s, let's say, smoking hashish or marijuana, you wouldn't want to celebrate that or encourage it, but you'd want to gently advise them and try to get them the proper counseling for that if they have a problem. Then that same compassion and care should be used if a child comes up and says, “Look, Baba, you know, I am dealing with this same-sex attraction, I know it's haram. I don't like that I feel this way. I've acted upon it” - even if they acted upon it, but they're trying to deal with it, that they have been that vulnerable to open up to a parent, the worst thing a parent could do would be to tell them off and tell them they're cursed and throw them out of the house.

This is an opportunity, and none of us are beyond redemption, and if anyone has nadam (regret/guilt) or has a sense of a feeling that is troubling them about something that they've done that it's haram, this is actually a good sign, right? It's not a bad sign, it's a good sign. So that's the way that we should be approaching it from my perspective, but Allah knows best.

Waheed  46:12
Ameen. Jazak Allah khairan for mentioning that, and I really loved what you said at the beginning, that it's very important for us to understand our limitations and things that are beyond your “jurisdiction”, you would refer those people to proper clinical psychologists who are also grounded in the deen, because that is very important. And then you would offer spiritual support. And, as we've mentioned earlier in the podcast, that it has to be multidisciplinary, like there has to be a spiritual component, but there also has to be a psychological component, emotional, social, and physical as well. So it's very important to kind of work together to help the individual holistically, so to speak. 

We've had a couple of episodes with Br. Mobeen Vaid, and he mentioned that, unfortunately, a lot of Muslim psychologists are very pro-LGBT, or LGBT-affirming, and it becomes very disastrous when, you know, he tries to refer parents to particular psychologists, and he thinks they're Muslim and they might be in line with the deen. But, unfortunately, he gets very surprised to hear that parents were distraught, that they went to that person, and that person was very gay-affirming. And that is another crisis that, I think, we need to find solutions by training psychologists in the field of علم النفس (science of the self, psychology), as well as grounding them in the deen properly, to have that similar approach that we hope to achieve, inshaAllah. So what I'm trying to say is, you said it yourself, mashaAllah, you’re connected with those individuals, with those psychologists or therapists, who are also grounded in the deen.

Imam Dawud  47:52
And actually, I know two, and I mentioned it, and I was very specific about that, not just saying Muslims, but Muslims grounded in traditional sacred knowledge. There’s one who's a brother that I know who is grounded [in the deen], and then there's also a sister. So I know of two, but you're correct, that there are many people in our community, including my area, social workers, counselors and psychologists who are Muslims, and they're good sisters and good brothers, but they have taken on totally the training that they've gotten from secular institutions, and they're not focusing their treatment based upon Qur’anic literacy. So, Qur’anic literacy is having a basis in our creed, that has to be paramount. You know, I always point Muslims towards Muslims first, but to be frank with you, there's probably practicing Catholics who are psychologists, who probably would do a better job counseling many Muslims on this issue than a lot of Muslims who have totally ingested the “woke” agenda and the “woke” framework.

Waheed  49:30
100%, absolutely. And I agree with you. I mean, a lot of people would come to me personally and I would refer them to Christian therapists or even Jewish therapists who are in line with our deen and our perceptions/worldview, more than actually Muslim therapists, unfortunately. So, this is the reality of it.

49:54
If I were to ask you another question, which is, just imagine yourself that you are speaking to the Imams counsel, or you are in an event where you're talking to the broader community of Imams and community leaders across different Muslim sects and ideologies. And you're all gathered to talk about this issue. Ideally, you want to formulate like a plan, or like a general strategic plan where you talk about, “Okay, this is how we want to deal with this issue in our communities. For anyone who's struggling with these matters, these are the points that we want to talk about”, or for their parents and family members, anyone who's struggling with this, we want to like have a unified foundation. What do you think the roles of Imams and community leaders should be in this regard? You know, whether it's the political arena or the personal arena with regards to people who struggle with this, what should they be involved with, and what is out of their league, if that makes sense?

Imam Dawud  50:52
Okay, so without taking too long, I think that a lot of confusion on this and other issues relates back to an epistemological crisis. So, be it how we teach young people the deen, to even adults. For instance, we have to go back to what constitutes objective truth, and if we are confused about how we understand what objective truth is, then everything else can be problematic in what we deal with, socially as well as politically. And it’s not just LGBTQ; it’s the whole issue in America, for instance, of trying to redefine prostitution as sex work. And there's even been Muslims who are activists who've been involved in promoting so-called sex work, or promoting the legalization of all drugs, including narcotics, like heroin. Like it's a broader epistemological problem. 

So I would say, number one, the very beginning of Imam An-Nasafi’s (may Allah have mercy on his soul) Aqeedah, and what he identified as the three ways in which we understand and know what objective truth is, that has to be taught at a very young age to Muslims, it has to be fortified or refortified, and then given tangible and practical examples about how we understand objectivity or objective truth from what is subjective, which then leads us to then talking about these other issues that are very specific. Because if a person is very clear on what constitutes objective truth, then getting to the adilla (evidence) from the Qur’an and Sunnah in explaining how to broach these issues is much easier. But if someone has a very fundamental problem of what actually defines truth, especially when we live in a time where people say, “Well, you know, speak your truth”, or “You have your truth, he has his truth, and they're all equally true”, then people become confused. And we really are in a post-truth era in the West. You know, there's modernism and post-modernism, and that's probably another discussion that Ustadh Mobeen Vaid may have already touched on before. 

So I think that's paramount in regards to what we should deal with. In regards to politics, one other point that I would make, and if I can go back to one of the qawa’id (foundations/rules) that is mentioned by our scholars, and I’ll mention Sidi Ahmad Zarrouq Al-Maliki (may Allah have mercy on his soul), just as an example of his book of Qawa’id, where he mentioned that it is not permissible for anyone to proceed in an endeavor until they know the ruling of Allah pertaining to it. So I think that for a lot of this political engagement that Muslims are involved in, I think that we need to hit a pause button, and tell those people who are getting involved, if, in fact, their niyyah (intention) is to please Allah, it should conform with the Sacred Law of Allah. That if people are unsure or have shubuhat (doubts), that it's better to sit still and not say anything, than to engage in these issues. 

So we've been trained that we have to like this, or we have to share this, or we have to be involved, or we have to be civically engaged, whereas my position is, in speaking to the Imams and telling communities, that if you are unclear, or this issue is a gray matter and you're unclear about it or not sure, sukut, or staying silent, is the default position, instead of trying to rush into issues because they become popular. This is what I would stress to Imams to tell to general congregants and to the people.

Waheed  55:35
Barak Allah feek. So in that same theoretical situation where you're speaking to the Imams, I'm going to be sharing some messages to those Imams from our own community. So, last summer, we conducted an online survey on our online support group called the Straight Struggle platform, where a lot of men and women who struggle with same-sex attractions or gender dysphoria, they're in that community, and they provide support for each other, and they help each other stay on the righteous path, inshaAllah. And I've asked them to send me messages they would like to give to Imams, chaplains and community leaders around the world, basically. So after assembling all of these answers, I grouped them into three main categories. So the first one entails education for the Imams and chaplains and community leaders with regards to these topics, and the second category is to provide safety, support and a sense of well-being to the individuals struggling with these matters, and then the third category is to raise awareness in your own communities about these topics. So, inshaAllah, I'd like to do this with you, whereby I would read some of these answers or suggestions that have been given by the brothers and sisters, and I'd like to hear your reflections on them, your critiques, your commentary, and maybe what we can all work together on starting with this, inshaAllah. 

So, this is as far as the category of education in general, educating Imams and chaplains and community leaders, one members says, “All three -- imams, chaplains, and community leaders -- must, like teachers, DO THEIR HOMEWORK on this issue. Ignorance or simplistic, superficial approaches are no longer excusable. Our Muslim community (particularly in the West) is at least 15-20 years behind on this issue, and the time to catch up is yesterday. Many youth are questioning the deen over this particular issue, and some either leave it altogether or advocate deforming it to conform with the LGBT narrative (which is practically the only narrative out there these days and, therefore, the one that most now simply take for granted as an obvious fact). This is one of the greatest fitnahs (if not the greatest) in this time and age. People are doubting and leaving religion altogether (and their relationship with God), the foundation of creation (male-female dichotomy) is being broken down, and chaos is becoming the norm. The responsibility is huge.”

And another brother says, “We MUST articulate a strong, principled, Islamically-grounded counter narrative that is based in both empirical reality and the truth and guidance of Revelation. Our imams and community leaders are the only ones who can do this effectively, but so far they have been letting us all down in a major way. No one said it was easy to lead a religious community (especially in such a secular age), but you took on the job, so you need to live up to the calling. Those who look to you for guidance cannot respect you as viable leaders when they see you running scared and hiding your head in the sand to avoid addressing difficult (and politically costly) issues. Issues of gender and sexuality need to be addressed by you, our leaders, in a strong, principled, straightforward, and clear (but also compassionate) manner. The iman of many young people today is on the line due to this whole constellation of issues. Guidance is ultimately in the hands of Allah, but we must each do our part. This responsibility lies especially heavily on those who have put themselves forward as leaders. We know it's not easy, but it comes with the territory. Be courageous and strong -- like a leader should be -- and we will be behind you. Most importantly, know that Allah will have your back. Right now, there is nothing but resounding silence on this issue from our leaders, while the LGBT narrative is playing 24/7. Which side is going to win if things continue this way? The Muslim community now has excellent resources available on this topic -- A Way Beyond the Rainbow podcast (which no other religious community has anything comparable to), the writings of Br. Mobeen Vaid, the wonderful, must-read MuslimMatters article from Br. Yousef ("From a Muslim with Same-Sex Attractions"), and others. DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Set aside time to really educate yourselves on these issues. Take advantage of all the excellent hard work that's been done and use that to inform your discourse on this topic. Use it to forge a viable Islamic narrative on this issue that can not only save the iman of our Muslim youth but serve as a powerful tool for da'wa among non-Muslims -- including those who struggle with same-sex attractions and/or identify with the LGBT community. Islam has, on this issue as on every other, the best and most balanced approach, the wisest and most correct guidance. Instead of running away from these issues, we should craft a confident (and compassionate) narrative that we are eager to take out to others. "Al-Islamu ya'lu wa-la yu'la 'alayhi" (الإسلام يعلو ولا يُعلى عليه) -- Islam (i.e., the truth) is uppermost and is not dominated over (by false narratives, specious ideologies, those calling to the way of sin and kufr). We need to start seeing our leaders embody that spirit, especially on these very contentious issues of gender and sexuality. "Kullukum ra'in wa kullu ra'in mas'ulun 'an ra'iyyatihi" (كلكم راع وكل راع مسؤول عن رعيته): Each of you is a shepherd, and every shepherd is responsible for (i.e., will be asked about -- mas'ul 'an) his flock. Lead and we will follow. Abdicate and your flock will go astray.”

MashaAllah, very eloquent and very long. But what do you think about this? Any comments?

Imam Dawud  1:01:13
Well, I would say that, in America, at least, I can speak more from this perspective, there are scholars and Shuyukh in the masajid and in local areas who don't really have big platforms, who have been talking about this issue more as of recent years, and then you have those who have larger platforms and lead up institutions or organizations, who maybe have been silent or totally silent on the issue or haven't been very clear. So, again, I would say that we are behind, there's no doubt about it, but we need to challenge and actually assist our local leaders and bring forth to them the issues that matter, to get clarity - I don't know if “press” is the right word, but to, you know, bring these issues and to amplify the seriousness of them, this and other issues, so that they can speak to them. 

Now, in regards to the first thing, and I will say this, and I'll just tell a personal story. About 10 years ago, at least, I was part of a fellowship at a major university, and there were Muslims that were a part of this. And I saw how not only fundamentally confused the Muslims were, they're a part of this fellowship at this major university, but how they were actually on the side of actually promoting confusion. And I went to some scholars that are part of a particular institution, I told them what I saw. And their concern wasn't to deal with this; their concern was what was going on in Syria and the whole issue of the war and Da’ish (ISIS). And, of course, that's a very important issue. But, I go back again, and I say this, and I've said it a number of times, it's not to throw shade on imams and shuyukh who are immigrants, but I truly believe that until the majority of our mashayikh and our female scholars, like in the Jewish and Christian communities, are born and raised in the West, and have gotten educated not just in religious texts, but the contexts in which we are living in, we're gonna continue to flounder and to basically struggle with this and other issues, because a lot of our mashayikh, unfortunately, they have like one toe, not even a whole foot, they have one toe here and they have a whole foot back somewhere in the Muslim world, and really, psychologically, they're not even really fully here to even deal with these issues. 

So, that's something that we really have to deal with, as far as long-term strategy and investment in our community, where we can have more of our scholars, females and males, and I really think, more so, to correct the imbalance, even more so investment in female traditional scholarship, where we have people who understand not only the texts, but also the contexts that can weigh in on these issues and help us. But I don't expect someone who's preoccupied fully or the majority time of what's going on in Sham (Levant) to be the leader on issues like this here in America. I just don't.

Waheed  1:05:40
Right. That is very realistic, I agree. Another member, as we alluded to before, he/she is advocating to educate imams in the field of psychology and human behavior, human development phases and complex trauma, as he/she says, “They are the source of most issues present in Muslim societies, SSA or otherwise. Modernize your approach to knowledge acquisition, ignorance is not bliss. There is a need for multi-disciplinary and collaborative efforts (involve therapists, counselors, teachers and educators, parents and family members, medical doctors, and people who have done the research/spoken about these matters).” And we've touched upon this earlier in the episode, that it needs to be multidisciplinary. So, inshaAllah, any Imams listening or community leaders, please reach out to other professionals who can also help with this. 

Imam Dawud  1:06:32
Let me say something about this? Again, I see that so much is demanded from imams, where an imam is supposed to be Jack of all trades. If this is the case, then the community and institutions have to be willing to put their money where their mouth is and to invest and give money for continuing education for imams, and also for imams to have sabbaticals, where Imams are able to have paid leave from their duties in the masjid, so that they can study and come up to speed, to take classes in the research regarding these issues. So, an extra burden can't be placed on imams where they have to go take this amount of classes and this amount of classes, and they get no additional time off or no monetary support. That's unrealistic. And I think that if we're going to demand more for imams, then we have to demand more for ourselves in supporting that endeavor. I'm saying that as an imam that is tasked with so many things, where is the support from the community and from the institutions for the Imams, if you expect more from the imams. 

Waheed  1:07:48
Absolutely, and that's completely fair. And, inshaAllah, once I finish the survey section, I have some questions to ask about what you want from the community, like how the community can actually support imams and community leaders. So, inshaAllah, we'll get to that. Absolutely, jazak Allah khairan for mentioning that for sure. 

And this is very common, this is something that I've seen a lot, and we've had a lot of discussions, a lot of members complain about the language that is used in a lot of the khutbahs (lectures/Friday sermons) or the classes that are given in masajid - I mean, it doesn't have to happen in every masjid, but this has been a very common occurrence, that there's a lot of like, you know, the language that is used is filled with hate or exclusion or judgment. A lot of members were saying, “Please change the hurtful or blaming language that is typical of sermons on khutbahs. Teach gratitude, brotherly love, compassion and mercy. Before you judge, learn about the history of the person, listen to them, empathize and talk to them about their potential, the love of God, the purpose of our lives, and so on.” So, Imam Dawud, as an imam who is addressing imams who might be very harsh in their words or very judging, what advice would you give to kind of change their rhetoric that is used?

Imam Dawud  1:09:06
So, there's two things. So, number one, there should not be name calling, right? There should not be name calling. There's no doubt about that. And there’s a saying of - I don't know who wants to attract flies - but there's a saying in America that “You attract more flies with honey than vinegar.” Like I understand the wisdom, I don't want flies around me! I understand the reasoning. But, you know, in other words, sweet words or not being harsh attracts more people than being harsh. And this is the famous hadith narrated in Sahih Muslim and others, where the Prophet (PBUH) had to counsel our Mother Aisha (RAA) about using harsh language in regards to some Jewish people who were insulting him, and he told her "إن الله رفيق يحب الرفق في الأمر كله", that surely God is kind, and He loves kindness in every matter. So, that's definitely something that has to be concerned. There should be no name calling, no making mockery of people in classes or on the mimbar (imam’s podium), with anyone struggling with any sort of challenge of shahawat in general. 

I would also say, however, that part of perfecting our Iman as Muslims is "الحب في الله والبغض في الله", that we love for the sake of Allah, but we also loathe/despise things for the sake of Allah. So, for the person who wrote that, I would say that, in the Qur'an, we have al-wa’ad (الوعد), promises of glad tidings and rewards, but we also have al-wa’eed (الوعيد), threats, in the Qur’an, Allah gives threats, everything isn't love. The Prophet also told about and gave threats. So the Imam on the mimbar or in his classes, and also the female scholar, is supposed to talk about love. But there is also a place for discourse that Allah and His Messenger hate certain things. There is also a place that there’s glad tidings, but the imam just can't say “Love, love, love” and not mention that there's also ‘athab, there’s punishments, right? 

So, this is a balance that has to be done. We talk about glad tidings first, but we also have to give the warning. So, I would just say that there is a place for giving warning or talking about threats, and that's part of the deen, and we can't act like it's not part of the deen.

Waheed  1:12:13
Of course. Absolutely, we 100% agree. And I think that the member who sent this probably was referring to what a lot of us have experienced, in terms of a lot of imams, maybe out of ignorance, or whatever it is, that they kind of lump everyone in the same category, and they just address “homosexuals” in general. Well, some of us experience same-sex attractions or gender dysphoria, but we don't act upon it. But others have chosen to live the lifestyle. We just seem to be lumped in one category, and a lot of us hear constantly the rhetoric of hate and exclusion. But this is not fair, you know, because there is a difference between actions and desires that sometimes get conflated in the religious rhetoric, which is, I think, what this member has been referring to. And, of course, yeah, I mean, we don't really agree with that. But what you said is absolutely true, there has to be a balance in that regard. 

The second category of answers that we got pertain to providing safety and support and a sense of belonging. And, again, here, we're not talking about opening the masajid to become more LGBT-friendly and LGBT-affirming, but more like to become a safe space for Muslims who really struggle with these matters of same-sex attractions or gender dysphoria, who really want to open up to receive guidance and support, to stay true to Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala and Islam. And a lot of the answers that we got were hopes, rather, or recommendations to make the mosque a safe space, to open the doors and make sure everyone knows that the doors are open, particularly for people who struggle with this - not to be, again, LGBT-affirming, but rather to make it clear that Muslims who struggle with this, you know, we have people you can talk to, if that is available, or rather to provide a safe space for people to actually speak to their imam maybe, local resources and initiatives that address this matter. Maybe it's like a halaqah (religious circle) or like an event where people can learn more about this. 

And another brother or sister said, “We are normal, we want to be included. We do not want to impose our feelings or beliefs on you. We want to be accepted, loved and feel like we belong, because if we can't feel that way in the masjid, in the house of Allah, then surely we are lost, wandering alone, waiting to be led astray.” And, again, this is not with regards to living the lifestyle, but rather, you know, we're struggling, and we need to feel like we belong in the house of Allah. Unfortunately, a lot of people are kicked out because they might act in a certain way that is beyond their capacities, like maybe a guy might be a little bit effeminate, he is trying to work on his issues, but this is beyond him, for example. People might lash out at him or throw him out of the masjid. The same thing might happen with a sister wallahu a’alam. 

So, I think what they're trying to say is to kind of make the masajid more open for people to be accepted, loved, and for them to turn to maybe the imam or the female scholar, to speak with them. My question to you is, how can we do that on a practical level? Because I've gotten questions from imams as well as therapists who were like, “Okay, we want to make our mosques more ‘inclusive’ within the bounds of the deen. But how do we do that?”

Imam Dawud  1:15:44
Okay, so every masjid and every imam may not get to the point that we would want them to be at on this issue. And that's just being realistic. And that relates to a number of issues relating to differences of manahij (ways/paths), to even issues of racism that many Muslims who are black complain about in certain jama’at (groups) in the West, about experiencing feeling of non-inclusion because of race. But what I would say is two things: One, we need to bring these issues to the leadership of masajid and to imams, and to bring it up and discuss it on individual levels, or even as a group, in confidence, as a hadith says, "المجالس بالأمانة" (meetings are based on trust and confidentiality). So they say, “Look, we're bringing this issue, and this is a matter that stays between us, but we'd like this to be discussed. And we believe that X, Y and Z can improve.” 

This is a constant struggle of bringing up these issues to leadership, and just because we bring it up one time and it's not acted upon, that doesn't necessarily mean that we should give up. Sometimes, and as we say here in the States, that “The institutions move more like a Titanic than the speedboat”, meaning that institutional change comes slowly. It’s not something that happens on a dime, like, “Oh, I asked once or twice, and they didn't change. So, therefore, I just give up!” No, that's not how it works.  

The other thing is that, those who are suffering with same-sex attraction or gender dysphoria who are Muslims need allies who are not suffering with this - suffering is the wrong word - who are being tried by this, to bring these concerns up as well. And this is for all of us, that remembrance benefits the believers, and we know things sometimes but have to be reminded of it, as far as making safe spaces for people. We tend to sometimes forget that the Sahabah (companions), may Allah be pleased with them, were at different levels, and a number of them struggled with different things. I mean, we forget that in Al-Masjid An-Nabawi, there were Sahabah that would come in - one very famous story about one Sahabi who had a drinking problem. We had a young Sahabi that came and said “O, Rasul Allah, give me permission to commit zina.” So, the Sahabah had that much comfort of going to the Prophet (PBUH) to say, “I'm dealing with this shahwah, I know I can't act upon it, so give me some guidance”, but he literally wanted permission to act on the shahwah. And we know how the Prophet (PBUH) didn't say, “Oh, you're crazy! Get out of my Masjid!” No, he didn't treat him that way. 

So, you know, our leaders, males and females, have to be reminded that, amongst the best generation, there were people who were dealing with these things. There was a Sahabi by the name of Hit, he was mukhannath (hermaphrodite), and he was dealing with issues. So, we have examples of Al-Masjid An-Nabawi, and how the Prophet (PBUH) had the masjid as being a “hospital” for men and women who were dealing with all sorts of spiritual maladies. It just wasn't a special country club for the pious, as if, you know, treating everyone like they were angels, because the Sahabah were not angels, right? I mean, none of them were angels in the literal sense, because they all were human beings. But you understand what I'm saying. Like, they all weren't of the maqam (station) of Abu Bakr As-Siddiq (RAA) or Ali ibn Abi Taleb (RAA) or Fatima (RAA), like they all weren't there, they were at different levels. And I think that our leaders have to be reminded of this, that we have a certain space and certain types of issues that need to be addressed for our community and its totality.

Waheed  1:21:03
Absolutely. I couldn't agree, subhan Allah. Barak Allah feek for saying that. And then, the third category of answers that we got pertain to raising awareness in your communities, as imams and community leaders. And one brother spoke to me about this, and he himself is a student of knowledge, and he is learning sacred knowledge to become a scholar, inshaAllah, in the future, and he himself deals with same-sex attractions. Alhamdulillah, he is leading a pious life, he is not acting upon his desires, but things do get difficult, as you can imagine. And he told me, and I've added his answer, that he's becoming increasingly tired and overwhelmed by the negative stereotypes. And he knows that a lot of other students of knowledge do have these issues, they're struggling with this in silence, and they are tired of the rhetoric or the usual statements that they hear, you know, “It's your choice”, or “It's just a desire like anything else”, or “Oh, it's not bad, stop complaining!” And he says, “For some people with SSA, it causes immense chronic anxiety and conflict, they just need your love, openness and acceptance. A lot of us feel like, if you don't really experience these problems, you have no idea what it feels like. So please stop using these terms and try to understand where we're coming from, at least offer a place of compassion and support.” And this has come up very frequently, subhan Allah. Any words you would like to share with us, particularly to any imams or community leaders listening to you right now?

Imam Dawud  1:22:33
Well, for community leaders, like we're all supposed to strive to have empathy, and knowing that we cannot totally walk in other people's shoes, right? So we are all challenged with different things that we all have our own different life experiences. So, it's our job, as much as possible, to try to have an open heart, and open our ears to have people talk about their experiences, and to help them even when we can't promulgate certain behaviors being done, but we can empathize with the experiences and the tests that different people go through as best as we can. 

And, as community leaders, we have to pray for all of our Ummah, pray for ourselves and also pray for people. Also, in regards to this issue, that we're talking about the anxiety that people feel, and this is for the leaders who feel anxiety about hearing these things, and also those who are dealing with certain anxieties that come up when they hear people saying things that hurt them or that make them feel a level of discomfort. The best advice I can give is that when we have these feelings coming up to us on either side of anxiety, is that we try to take a step back and disengage, and reflect on our own states, and to increase sending much salawat on the Prophet (PBUH) to try to bring some equilibrium back to our hearts. And we know this from the hadith of Ubay ibn Ka’ab (RAA), that this is a prescription that the Prophet (PBUH) gave us, that when we have some sort of anxiety that comes to us - I don't like using the word “trigger” because I think it's overused, but for lack of a better word - you as a leader feel triggered by certain things that have come to you, or a person who feels triggered by going to a leader and being dismissed, that we still have to find some space in our hearts to pardon people, but we need to take a step back to maybe separate ourselves from the situation, and then take that focus off of that individual, and put our focus in our heart on our beloved Prophet (PBUH) and to send salawat on the Prophet (PBUH).

Waheed  1:25:37
Peace be upon him. Amazing advice, jazak Allah khairan for the reminder. And the same brother, actually, said, “Please stop sermonizing so much about marriage.” And he says, “In my community, not marrying is almost a sin. I hope that imams and others can be more compassionate and open about this issue. I don't know even one imam that has set up a support group for brothers and sisters that are struggling with this, or even created an opportunity for marriage between them, while also providing spiritual guidance to make such marriage work.” And this is coming from the perspective of, you know, these very conservative communities where marriage is always advocated, and it becomes very suffocating for people who, for whatever reason, may not be able to get married. And so they go to the masjid and they also hear about marriage. I mean, for sure marriage is recommended in our deen, it's mustahab (recommended/favored). It has the different fiqhi rulings that we know depending on different people's conditions, but the fact that it's shoved down our throats to a huge extent, it becomes really demoralizing. So, I don't know, would you like to comment on that a little bit?

Imam Dawud  1:26:46
That's a very big topic, in general, as far as the issue of marriage, about the breakdown of community, the traditional way in which Muslims would get married in traditional societies, the extended family concept, and how much of that has been broken up in the West, and the crisis that people face, in general, of getting married, much less staying married. That's like a huge topic. But it is, at the least, a Sunnah Mu’akkadah (confirmed Sunnah) to be married, although not everyone can get married. I mean, there's notable scholars who never married. Ibn Taymiyah never married, right? So, I mean, there's a whole list of scholars who are known in our tradition who never got married. 

But that's a very big topic, and it is a community project, not just for the imams of coming up with ways in which we can help facilitate marriage, but I'm not sure what the brother has heard on the manabir. I actually don't hear about people getting married enough over here, at least, on my side, but then again, you know, I give Khutbat Al-Juma’ah (Friday sermon) almost every Friday, and I actually rarely speak about the issue of marriage, because I think that the issues of diseases of the hearts, in general, that we are plagued with is probably the biggest issue, of dealing with kibr (pride/ego), with hasad (envy), with hirs (greed/craving), with riyaa’ (showing off), as far as the showing off on social media and these things. This is what I focus on. I think these are bigger issues for us to hear about than talking about marriage every Friday, right?

Waheed  1:28:47
Right. Absolutely. Yes, I'm glad you don't do that. But speaking of Friday Sermons, another member said “Please address the topic of same-sex attractions or gender dysphoria, whether at events or Friday khutbahs. Do not shy away from these topics. Of course, in a way that is neutral and factual and does not equal promotion, because people need to understand about these and to actually give them resources in the masjid.” Because some answers were like, “Okay, we heard lectures or events that talk about porn addiction at the masjid or the Islamic center that we attend, which are very insightful and necessary, but again, you know, they discuss these ‘taboo topics’. But why don't we also talk about SSA or gender dysphoria from an Islamic perspective?” 

And by the same by the same token, another brother/sister says, “Do not lump us with the affirming LGBTQ Muslims.” As I said before, you know, “We have our own narrative, we strive daily for the sake of Allah every minute or every hour to remain steadfast. Please acknowledge that, do not talk about LGBT people negatively without affirming that there are many Muslims with SSA or gender dysphoria who turned to mosques or imams to find their home and belonging, but the Muslim community does not see them, they turn a blind eye, shame them, turn them down with reductionist approaches involving fasting, and prayer and marriage.” And, obviously, we're not reducing this to fasting, prayer and marriage, they have their merit. But, you know, using that as a reductionist approach, “Oh, go fast and pray, and get married”, while there are a lot of underlying issues that need to be addressed. 

So, I think what we're trying to see here is more conversations about this being brought up openly, and addressing the fact that you might have a brother or a sister, or your kid, or your uncle might be dealing with this in secrecy, and they're striving daily with this internal jihad. And they should not be lumped in the same category of LGBT Muslims, or, you know, LGBT in general. So what are your thoughts on this?

Imam Dawud  1:30:59
I agree. I also think just keeping it real, that I believe that some centers don't talk about this issue, but will talk about porn addiction or substance abuse, because these are issues that are considered to be not as socio-politically controversial, whereas in certain centers, if there's a discussion about SSA, for instance, or gender dysphoria, there would be young people, in certain communities, who actually would protest and start a campaign against their masjid to have the event cancelled. And that's just a real. And I've seen this happen, where a particular speaker was getting invited to a certain center to talk, in which young people in the community caused such a fit and called the speaker “homophobic” that they actually rescinded the invitation for the speaker to speak at the masjid. So, this is an unfortunate reality that there is, to a lesser degree, a level of – and, by the way, the people who do this, they themselves aren't the one struggling with SSA; these are people who are calling themselves “allies” and are, many times, more militant than people who are struggling with same-sex attractions themselves. It's kind of like, in the States, and I take this back to my experience as an African American, but when George Floyd was killed, you look at the protests, the people who were acting violent and who were saying “Abolish the police” the most, or even like vandalizing properties, those actually were so-called “White allies”. It wasn't even black people who were at the forefront doing those things, but they call themselves standing for Black Liver Matter. 

So we have the same type of militancy in our community that, unfortunately, causes or makes certain Islamic centers shy away from having this very relevant and necessary programming.

Waheed  1:33:25
Absolutely. I agree with you, 100%. And we have other answers or submissions here, where they talk about standing firm on principles, and being compassionate in your approach. We've spoken about this as well, providing comfort and reassurance. One very nice answer from a brother/sister, they said “We need to teach people about the infinite mercy and love of God, no one wants to worship an angry, hateful, unjust, unmerciful God. Our community has been suffocated by the spread of this toxic view of Allah for far too long. Muslims with SSA and gender identity issues need to feel and believe that Allah sees them as completely worthy in their existence as they are. The layers of shame and inadequacy need to be removed, and we need to create entry points for the love of Allah to penetrate the hearts of those people. When one is in love, behaviors change, judgments melt, truth becomes manifest. It becomes easier to worship and sacrifice. Love must be the foundation, especially for those who believe and feel that they are unworthy and unlovable. Let Allah save them by spreading His love around for everyone to rejoice in.” 

And this is this is something that I personally identify with, and a lot of people that I've spoken with who are part of the community of the support group, where there are so called “God wounds”, unfortunately, whether it's through the childhood developmental periods, or because of abuse that's been brought up, or because of the toxic mentality of a lot of imams that we've been exposed to, we've internalized this idea that God is out to get us, astaghfirullah, that He is hateful or vengeful, and He is waiting for us to do something wrong for Him to get back at us and punish us. And this just creates a lot of mental anguish, as you can imagine, a lot of emotional turmoil, and it just leads to a myriad of mental health issues on top of the problems that we have with SSA or gender dysphoria. So, I think that there needs to be more emphasis - of course, it has to be a balanced approach, as you said, there's mercy and there's punishment, but to kind of also emphasize that Allah is all about love and mercy, and to see that side of Allah that a lot of us have been deprived of, subhan Allah. Any thoughts that you would like to share with us on that?

Imam Dawud  1:35:38
Yeah, it is definitely a balance. And Al-Asmaa’ Al-Husna (Beautiful and Good Names of Allah), Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala has Names that talk about his Jamal and his Jalal. You know, every chapter of the Qur’an except for Surat At-Tawbah starts off with talking about the the beauty and the perfection of Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala and His mercy: Ar-Rahman, Ar-Raheem. And He says "رحمتي وسعت كل شيء" – “My love and compassion has been extended upon everything”, not just every person, but every created thing. "كل شيء". 

So this is something that has to be stressed, as well as that Allah, in His Jalal, He is magnificent. He also is The One who brings about justice and reckoning. The beautiful thing about this is that we, as Muslims and as believers, should always have hope in the Mercy of Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala, we should always be stressing that the doors to repentance, as long as we are on this side [of the earth], we're not under the earth, that the doors to His compassion and the doors of repentance are always open to us. And this is something that should be stressed, not just for this issue, but in general. And the Prophet (PBUH) said that there was one ayah in the Qur’an that he mentioned specifically that is more beloved to him than the dunya and everything in it, and it is where Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala says to the Prophet (PBUH), He commands him cool, “Say to my servants who have transgressed against their own souls, know that I am The Forgiver”, right? So Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala mentions this in the Qur’an. So, His mercy is open, and I agree that this should be stressed and placed more emphasis on, without being willy-nilly that there is no such thing as a Shari’a. So, I agree with that.

Waheed  1:38:30
Now, I'd like to ask you as an imam and a community leader, what do you wish that the community would know - whether it's a community of parents and families, schools, individuals who deal with SSA or gender dysphoria - what do you wish they would know? And what would you like from your community in terms of support, in terms of protection or funding? I know that you mentioned this earlier that it would be ideal if imams would go on sabbaticals and study, they would be funded to study particular matters that are relevant, like psychology, or trauma-related topics and so on, to become more trauma-informed. What are things that you would wish your community would know, to be able to support you, so that we can work together, inshaAllah, with regards to the LGBT issue or other issues in general?

Imam Dawud  1:39:23
Okay, so three things, and we can speak directly to this issue, but it relates to others. Number one, don't expect your imams or the female scholars to be mind-readers. If you have issues or have concerns, you should come to your imams or scholars and tell them what is going on, and perhaps even if you see some blind spots, but say it with a level of deference and a level of respect. You know, so this is one thing, because imams are not mind-readers. And, in some cases, or in many cases, certain trends are going on in society, you may even see those developing even before many imams do, especially if those imams are immigrants, right? That's the first thing. 

The second thing is supporting the imams in regards to this continuing education, that if you were on a board, or if you're able to help, that imams need to be able to be supported, and to be able to get education, and to have time off without the fear of them not being able to take care of themselves or their families. And this is something that is real. 

The third thing is that, if we want our imam to take more courageous positions, then we also have to support them when those critics or those people who are against normative Islam seek to cancel them, to get them cancelled from speaking engagements, or even from some of the Muslims who are in academia, who are also scholarly, who we want to take certain positions, that when they take them, they lose their teaching jobs because they don't have tenure, or they're not able to function, that we, as a community, are actually going to have their backs. And I've heard this from some scholars who say that this is the reason why they are silent about certain things, because they don't believe that the community is actually going to have their backs. So, you want them to be courageous, and then to basically be out on the street and evicted when they don't get any support from the community. And so, this is a reality. 

And people who are scholars or imams, these are human beings with general concerns, and everyone is not at the level of like Ah. Abdul Qadir Al-Jilani, where they're at that maqam, where they're going to take a position, teach something, and live in poverty, right? Everyone's not at that level. So those are three things to keep in mind.

Waheed  1:42:48
Absolutely. Jazak Allah khairan. And the last question that I want to ask you is, given everything that we've spoken about today, if our communities, if we want to work together, inshaAllah, all of us to formulate a God-conscious discourse regarding this topic, and to raise awareness on these matters without compromising the deen, to stay in the middle, the wasatiyyah, the moderate Islamic position, as you have spoken about in your book and throughout this podcast. How can we work together to achieve that? What is needed, and how can we get there, inshaAllah?

Imam Dawud  1:43:23
How we get there, inshaAllah, in my opinion is for us to – and, again, I mentioned this issue and how we address it as a symptom of a bigger problem - that we have to get back and return to the balance of our tradition, in general, learning our tradition in ways that have been authentically transmitted, to actually learn the basics of our ‘aqeedah (creed) in a traditional way, and to also focus on not just the information, but also getting it from those with the proper adab (comportment) in the transference of that information. I think this is just a general thing that has been lacking. We have a problem amongst Muslims in the West, and I think, in general, of the of the adab of ikhtilaf, that we seemingly lost the comportment and the etiquette that we can disagree without feeling like we have to go to war against the person that we disagree with. So this is something that is beyond just ‘ilmi (knowledge-related/academic), but it's something that has to be in gatherings that is embodied and exemplified, and this goes back to, really, how our tradition was transmitted in a holistic way. And until we get back to that, then these other things that we are talking about are really academic discussions as far as I'm concerned. It's really getting back to the basics. And if we get back to the basics, this will help us in dealing with some of these other challenges. And Allah knows best.

Waheed  1:45:31
Indeed. Barak Allah feek. Imam Dawud, if anyone listening to you today would like to get in touch with you, what would be the best way to get in touch and stay in contact?

Imam Dawud  1:45:38
If someone has any questions, comments or feedback to me, they can send me an email at d.walid.speaks@gmail.com. I got off of social media about a year ago, as I was tired of seeing the Muslim wars on social media and the assaults on character and the defamation, so I'm kind of done with that “fusuq book” is what I call it. I’m off of there, but you can send me an email. And then I normally, besides being contacted, I’m also on Telegram, so you can follow me on Telegram. And that's also another way if you want to keep up with some of my khutab and some of my lectures or any other things, then I'm also on Telegram.

Waheed  1:46:56
Amazing. So how do we add you on Telegram? I’ll do that right away!

Imam Dawud  1:47:00
Okay, on Telegram, if you just go to Telegram and backslash my name all together "dawudwalid", it's very easy to find. So it's just my name together, so you can follow me on Telegram and you can get some more information, inshaAllah. And then, also, I put on there when I'm traveling. I'm just saying that, if you go on Telegram, you can see basically my travels, of where I'm going to be going, inshaAllah.

Waheed  1:47:42
Imam Dawud Walid, Barak Allah feek for all of your time and all of your efforts, jazak Allah khairan. I really, really appreciate your patience and for you to come on this podcast really means so much to me. I've learned so much from you today. This has been a very rich discussion, and I hope that we all have enjoyed and learned from this episode. Any last words that you would like to give the listeners today?

Imam Dawud  1:48:01
The last advice is that we need to pray for each other, as Muslims, as believers, and including making du’aa for those individuals who you disagree with, that we should ask Allah to guide them, and we ask Allah to forgive them, and this is the Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH), and even he did this for his people, much Quraysh, even when they disbelieved he prayed, "اللهم اهد قومي فإنهم لا يعلمون٬ اللهم اغفر لقومي فإنهم لا يعلمون" – “O, Allah, guide and forgive my people, for surely they do not know.” So this should be our du’aa, that if we disagree with someone, or we see someone we think that is not taking the best path, that if we don't do anything else, we should pray for their hidayah (guidance) and for their maghfirah (forgiveness) as believers. So this is my advice to you as well as to myself.

Waheed  1:49:12
And with this, we have come to the end of today's episode, I hope that you guys have enjoyed it and learned from it, inshaAllah. This wraps up our entire series dedicated to the broader Muslim community, and this wraps up actually all of our topics for the podcast. The next episode is going to be the podcast finale, where we wrap up this entire journey, inshaAllah. Until then, stay safe and healthy. This has been Waheed Jensen in “A Way Beyond the Rainbow”, assalamu alaikom warahmatullahi ta’ala wabarakatuh.

Episode Introduction
Introduction of Imam Dawud Walid
On Imam Dawud's Experience with LGBT Matters
On Challenges Facing Imams, Chaplains and Community Leaders
On Why Imams and Community Leaders are Scattered on this Issue
On Counseling Muslims Struggling with SSA or GD
On Counseling Parents and Families
On the Jurisdiction of Imams and What is Beyond Them
Survey Responses from the Straight Struggle Online Community
On How Muslim Communities Could Support Imams and Community Leaders
Contact Information
Ending Remarks