A Way Beyond the Rainbow

#49 - On the Characteristics of Codependency and Emotional Dependency

August 06, 2021 Amina and Waheed Jensen Season 4 Episode 9
A Way Beyond the Rainbow
#49 - On the Characteristics of Codependency and Emotional Dependency
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

In our second episode in the series on attachments, codependency and emotional dependency, Amina and I discuss the mental, emotional and behavioral characteristics that many individuals dealing with codependency and/or emotional dependency tend to exhibit.

What is the difference between caring and care taking? Why do I avoid confrontation and resort to people pleasing? Why do I hide my mistakes and have an attitude of perfectionism? Why do I enjoy giving but struggle with receiving? Why do I struggle with being too enmeshed in my relationships or too avoidant? What's the difference between codependency and genuine empathy? These and other questions are explored in this episode. 

References used and resources mentioned in this episode:
- Facing Codependence: What It Is, Where It Comes from, How It Sabotages Our Lives by Pia Mellody
- Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself by Melody Beattle
- No More Mr. Nice Guy by Dr. Robert Glover
- How To Do The Work by Dr. Nicole LePera
- The Human Magnet Syndrome: The Codependent Narcissist Trap by Ross Rosenberg
- "The Difference Between Being an Empath & Being Codependent" video
- "When Friendships Become Toxic: Understanding Emotional Dependency" webinar by Brothers Road

Waheed  00:39
Assalamu alaikom wa rahmatullahi ta’ala wa barakatuh, and welcome back to “A Way Beyond the Rainbow”, this podcast series dedicated to Muslims experiencing same-sex attractions who want to live a life true to Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala and Islam. I'm your host, Waheed Jensen, and joining me again in today's episode in our series on attachments, codependency and emotional dependency is my dear friend Amina, and we will be picking up from where we left off in the last episode. As you guys remember, in the previous episode, we talked about the origins of emotional attachments and codependency, and in this episode, inshaAllah, we will be talking about the characteristics of codependency and emotional dependency in detail. We have used the same resources that we have mentioned last time, so I will add them in the episode description for you guys to check out, inshaAllah. So let's get started. 

Amina  01:36
So the characteristics of SLDD or codependency – codependents are concerned about doing things right and making others happy at all costs. This comes from the belief that if the codependent is good, giving and caring, then they will, in return, be happy, loved and fulfilled. They're going to receive the love that they need, because they're constantly giving this love to others. So they're giving and giving. If they figure out the right way to do things, then things will never go wrong. This is obviously just their opinion. So all of these are part of early conditioning that makes this their core belief about themselves and others. Being good will equal that they will be loved and have their needs met. But, unfortunately, when this doesn't happen over and over, they continue to try harder, and they just do more of the same thing. And then they start to feel like they can never do it right. So no matter how hard they try, there's always going to be something wrong. So, they end up feeling the opposite of what they want to feel; they feel unhappy, unloved, and unfulfilled. And they start to feel like they don't deserve to be treated this way, because they constantly think “I'm doing all these things for this other person, why am I not getting this in return?” You know, “I'm a good husband, I'm a good wife, father, mother, friend…” whatever it is, and they're constantly feeling let down by others, because what they do is never good enough for somebody else to do the same for them. And so they're always seeking this approval, you know, what they do or say is at some level calculated to gain someone else's approval, or to avoid the disapproval from others. It is that external source of validation that we talked about, whether it's from, you know, family, spouse, friends, whoever it is. I constantly found myself doing this with friends and partners and family, I'm constantly giving, giving and giving, and then there's a part of me that wants to receive the same in return, but I don't receive the same in return. So then you start getting resentful, and you start thinking, “Oh, why is this person not doing the same for me?” when really, it's not their job, and it's not their responsibility, just like it's not my job or my responsibility to be doing all of these things for somebody else, either.  

Waheed  04:19
Exactly, yep, absolutely. I agree with you, 100%. And, as a result, you know, it follows that we try to eliminate or hide certain things about ourselves, particularly our mistakes or our needs or our emotions. And, you know, we try to become what we believe others want us to be, right? We try to become more generous, helpful, peaceful, etc., whatever other qualities people want from us, or we think that they want from us. We are afraid of others getting mad at us, shaming us, or leaving us if a particular mistake or a particular shortcoming that we have is exposed, and so our paradigm actually is the following: If I can hide my flaws and become what I think others want me to be, then I will be loved and get my needs met and have a problem-free life, and so on and so forth. This is based on a faulty interpretation of our childhood events, but it is the only roadmap that we are used to. It is highly ineffective; on a subconscious level, we actually know that this is not working, but we just keep on trying harder and harder, we do more of the same, we hope for different results. But that is not going to happen, right? And so, as a result, what happens is that we become more dishonest, because we hide our mistakes, we avoid conflict, we say what we think people want us to say, or what we believe they want to hear from us. We repress our feelings and we don't speak our truth. We become more secretive; because we are so driven to seek other people's approval, we will hide anything that we believe might upset anyone, we could tell lies, we can tell partial truths even, we omit information if we believe that it will prevent someone from focusing on us in a positive way. You know, a big part of us is that we try to hide parts of ourselves or things that are related to us, in areas particularly that are part of just being human and alive, like, you know, being sexual creatures, or having bodily functions that we try to just hide away from people, because we're ashamed of – the idea of getting older and losing our hair, for example, having particular needs, being imperfect and so on. We try to hide that from people thinking that if they see it, then we're imperfect. We need to hide or distract attention from any perceived shortcoming that people might end up realizing about us. Like if we forget things, if we're late, if we broke something, let’s say, if we're not able to understand something, particularly things like during a lecture or a meeting, if we're doing something wrong, if we're depressed, if we're in pain, if we generally mess up, whatever that we do, you know, there's a fear of failure and striving for perfectionism, right? 

Amina  07:20
Yeah. And all of this hiding of these actions is really to avoid conflict and confrontation. And the codependent is trying to keep peace at all costs, basically, that you're just a pushover, and you're allowing others to just walk all over you. Codependents really have a hard time saying “no” to people and wouldn't tell people imposing on them that they're doing so. Codependents typically have problems with setting boundaries, and boundaries are so important in any relationship or friendship. And we actually really dive deep into boundaries, but we'll touch on it a little bit here. There's typically three different types of boundaries: non-existent boundaries, damaged boundaries, or walls. So nonexistent boundaries, it creates an environment where the codependent can abuse another person or can be abused by another one quite easily. You know, boundaries are really in place to prevent other people from abusing you, but also to prevent you from abusing another. And, like I've said before, it doesn't have to be physical abuse [can be other kinds of abuse]. And so, typically, people that have nonexistent boundaries, they just don't even know what boundaries are. And so they don't notice when others are emplacing them on the person. If they don't notice when others are emplacing the boundaries, they don't know if they're crossing them or not, because they just have no concept of what they are. And then, obviously, they don't know how to set the boundaries. Damaged boundaries, these are present in individuals, typically, if a person has issues with setting boundaries with certain people, but doesn't have issues setting boundaries with others. So it could be that, you know, you have people that have no problem telling their supervisor “no”, if their supervisor tells them to do something, and if it's not part of their job duties, or if it's not part of the tasks that they have to do, they don't have a problem telling that supervisor “No, hey, I can't do this, I'm actually working on this other thing…” or whatever it is, but then that same person might have a very hard time if their friend is asking them to go out to dinner with them, and they don't really want to hang out tonight and go to dinner. So they feel bad for the friend, and they just tell this friend, “Okay, yeah, I'll go” when really they don't want to. So it is these people that might be able to say “no” to somebody, but they find themselves constantly saying “yes” to another group of people. So they will fall in this realm of damaged boundaries. And then the other boundaries are walls. So these are the people that put up walls to push people away. These are the people that will give the silent treatment, they are typically more reclusive, and they really stick to themselves.

There are also external boundaries. So external boundaries are to prevent people from physically hurting you, and to prevent yourself from physically hurting others. These are to protect your physical needs or sexual needs. And then there's internal boundaries, they protect your thoughts and feelings, and they protect other people's thoughts and feelings. And I think, for codependents, it's really hard to realize that your feelings should not be determined by someone else's actions or feelings. And we have to stop blaming others for how we think or feel, you know, blaming others for our happiness or sadness, you know, “I'm sad, because this person did whatever”, when really that should just come from ourselves, we can't continuously blame others for how we're thinking or feeling.

Waheed  11:38
Absolutely, beautifully said, 100%. It hits home, right? And another aspect of codependency is making excuses when we do something, or fail to do particular things, or when someone confronts us and expresses their feelings, whether that's like a partner, or a boss, or a friend, or whoever, we go into this mode of defending ourselves or explaining or making excuses and rationalizing things. And we need to realize that all of these things are fear-based behaviors that are used to distract others from focusing on our mistakes and “badness” that we perceive. We just jump into this defensive mode. 

And another aspect is shame dumping. So if someone gets angry at us, or points out some flaws or mistakes, even if they mean well, what happens is that our shame is going to be triggered, “I'm not good enough, I'm not lovable”, “Oh my God, like they were able to see through me”, blah, blah, blah. And so, in order to distract ourselves and the other person from our “badness”, we will try to sometimes turn the tables and do something to trigger the other person's own shame. We try to shift the focus from us in order to kind of like slip out of the spotlight. So we might blame the other person, we might start bringing up the past, we might start deflecting or pointing out the other person's flaws, and so on. So that's an example of shame dumping. 

The characteristics that we're basically talking about right now, you know, some of them might apply to people who identify with codependency, others might not. So just try and see how all of this fits into your life, right? 

Amina  13:35
Yeah, definitely. I personally think that the core characteristic of codependency is when you put someone else's needs and wants over your own. So some codependents are so used to doing this, that they can't even recognize what their needs and wants are. They start to feel numb, and they feel like they're just constantly going with the flow, because they're allowing others to dictate what their needs and wants are. And then there's another group of codependents – they know that they have needs and wants, but they can't differentiate between the two. So these are the types that might go on a huge shopping spree, because they think that that's what they need, but really, they just needed to eat something to satisfy their basic human need of hunger. So then, they've gone on this shopping spree, but they still feel unfulfilled or sad, and it's because they just satisfied a want but they didn't satisfy their actual need. And then some don't even know what their needs and wants are at all. Codependents are constantly neglecting their own needs and wants, and they constantly find themselves pleasing others but not themselves. Typically, by the end of the day, they're just so exhausted from satisfying everyone else, and they just can't even think about what they need or want, because they've spent all day satisfying everybody else. 

And a simple example of somebody who has poor boundaries, or doesn't exactly know what they need or want, or doesn't do what they need or want, it can be like what I said before, you know, just going out to dinner, a friend wants to go out to dinner with you, and then you just oblige, and you go. Or, actually, this just happened to me, I think it was a couple of weeks ago, where, you know, some friends that I hadn't seen for a couple of years, they asked me to go camping with them. And I just told them “no”, and then they tried to guilt trip me into it. And I said, “no”, and they just asked “why not?” And I said, “Because I don't want to go camping. I can go anywhere else with you. But I don't feel like going camping.” And then, you know, we saw each other the next weekend, and it was great. And that's the thing about boundaries, if you're not used to setting them, it can feel really weird and awkward at first. But typically in the end, you know, it just becomes so normal, I'm so used to setting boundaries with certain people, because I become a little bit selfish and the fact that “Oh, well, I'll see this friend when I want to.” 

Waheed  16:18
Yeah, for sure. 100%. So this idea of having needs – taking into consideration everything that we've spoken about before, when it comes to childhood abandonment and complex trauma – we may have learned as kids that the moments when we had the most needs, we felt the most abandoned, because our caregivers or our immediate support system or family did not attend to those needs, then we may have mistakenly assimilated the idea that our needs actually drove people away. And as a result, when we were kids, and we were helpless, we concluded that if we would be able to eliminate or hide our needs, then no one would abandon us. For a lot of us, that's what our brain understood, given everything that we've been through. So we convinced ourselves that if we didn't have needs, it wouldn't hurt so bad when our needs were not met. So not only did we learn to not expect to get our needs met, it also meant that our very survival seemed to depend on appearing not to have needs, if that makes sense. We wanted to put that armor on that we don't have needs. We don't expect anyone to meet our needs, because if people don't see that, then it just makes it less painful if they don't meet our expectations. 

So it becomes actually a dilemma or a sort of an unsolvable problem: We will never be able to totally repress our needs in order to stay alive, because we all have needs, but at the same time, we cannot really meet all our needs on our own. So how do we go about that? The only logical solution would be to try to appear needless and wantless, while trying to get our needs met in indirect and covert ways, which kind of explains all of what happens in a codependent’s life. So, you know, we believe that it's a virtue to have few needs and wants as people who have codependency, but then, when we go about trying to get our needs met, we are frequently indirect, unclear, even manipulative and controlling. So underneath all of this armor, we are actually extremely needy, right? It's very difficult to ask for what we want in very clear and direct ways. So it creates a sense of powerlessness, so a lot of us kind of resort to manipulation when we try to get our needs met, like controlling, manipulative, unclear and indirect ways. Sometimes we may even use shame and blame to control others, we may show that we are indifferent, helpless, even authoritative sometimes, or enraged, because we want particular outcomes that we want to get from people. But we can't get ourselves to become direct and clear and transparent. Sometimes we might even agree with others just to get what we want from them, right? And so on and so forth. 

Amina  19:22
Yeah, definitely. And another characteristic of codependence is that we typically are really bad at receiving. So we're actually really bad at receiving gifts or receiving love. Since getting their needs met contradicts these childhood paradigms, codependents are just really uncomfortable when they actually do get what they want, they're terrified of asking for help, they're completely miserable when others try to give it to them, and they have difficulty delegating things to others. These are the types that just want to do everything themselves. And though most codependents have a difficult time grasping this concept, they're terrified of getting what they really want, and they will go to extreme measures to make sure that they don't. They kind of carry out this unconscious agenda of connecting with the needy or unavailable people. They are always operating from this unspoken agenda, being unclear and indirect and pushing people away and sabotaging. And all of these strategies pretty much ensure that the codependent won't have to experience the fear and shame or anxiety that might get triggered if he or she actually allowed someone to focus on his or her needs. You'll see this a lot in gift giving; codependents will be giving a lot of gifts, but then someone will try to give them a gift in return, and sometimes they'll just flat out reject it or they will accept it but they will constantly be saying “Oh, you really don't have to, you really don't have to!” and they almost feel this shame for receiving the gift. And then they will try and top the gift, they will basically give something more lavish to the other person. A codependent will take somebody out for dinner, and then they're used to paying, and then the other friend will want to treat the codependent, and they will, and then the codependent will have to take them out to somewhere even more expensive, you know, just constantly trying to top the other person. 

Waheed  21:35
Absolutely, yeah. So, underneath all of that, what we can see is that there's this unconscious or unspoken agreement that the main way that we actually interact with the world around us is operating on this agenda of: I will do this for you, so that you will do that for me. We will both act as if we have no awareness of this “contract”. But okay, I'll do this for you, you do that for me. We don't even say that, but this is the way in which we kind of operate, right? So, for example, I whisper to someone, “I love you”, but then I wait for them to actually say “I love you too”. This is an example of this covert contract where we give something to get something in return. I give “I love you”s to get “I love you too”s in return. That's a way of trying to get all of our needs met. And this is just a generic example. There's nothing wrong with asking my spouse or someone I really love to tell me that they love me. But rather, telling them “I love you” first to get an “I love you too” back is kind of like an indirect and manipulative way to get what I need, right? 

Amina  22:54
I love you, Waheed. 

Waheed  22:55
I love you too, Amina! And this is a very clear, direct and transparent statement. 

Amina  23:07
You better! Anyways, yeah, so this type of behavior, it can really breed resentment, and I think it's pretty easy to see how it would, because you're always expecting someone to act in a certain way, and when they don't, and there's plenty of times that they won't, you're going to feel that sadness, because they didn't behave in a certain way that you were already expecting them to, because you did something for them, or you said something. So you're always trying to manipulate and control someone else's actions to make yourself feel better, but it's just not always going to happen like that. So most codependents believe that if someone would just be or act a certain way, then they themselves would be happy. And so, codependents find themselves saying a lot about family members or partners or friends, “If my wife or husband or cousin or whoever would just stop drinking or doing drugs then everything would be okay!” or “If they would just take out the trash, everything would be okay!” or “If they would do the dishes, everything would be okay!” It's always based on somebody else's actions, then the codependent’s life would be better and their feelings would be better. When, in reality, a codependent’s happiness and life should not be determined by someone else's actions, and we actually have zero control over somebody else's behavior. So instead of wasting all of this time trying to control somebody else's actions and thoughts and beliefs, we can just let those people be who they want to be, and then we be our own people, so that we can avoid the resentment, avoid feeling resentful to these other people when they're just trying to live their own lives. 

Waheed  25:00
Absolutely, 100%. And a major characteristic, as we've alluded to before, is caretaking. If a person has a problem, they have a need, or they're angry or depressed or sad, or whatever, we will frequently attempt to solve or fix that situation. And sometimes even without being asked, usually that's the case, without even being asked, we go and we jump right in. We do anything for anybody. One of the most common ways to try to meet our needs is through taking care of other people. We believe that our caretaking is the way that we love people, and it's one of the things that makes us good people and makes us appear as loving to others. In reality, this has nothing to do with being loving or good. And this is kind of a slap in the face when I read that, because it's a very immature and indirect attempt to try to get our needs met. 

And caretaking, if we break it down, it consists of two parts: Focusing on other people's problems and needs and feelings, in order to feel valuable and then get our own needs met, or to avoid dealing with our own problems or feelings. So it's always focusing on other people, because I want to get something in return, or run away from something that I have. So we find this a lot of times when we are attracted to people or situations that need fixing. Again, why are we attracted to that? Because this comes from our own childhood conditioning, the need to look good to gain approval. And, unfortunately, this behavior guarantees that we will spend our lives putting out fires and managing crises. And it's going to be very exhausting, and we're going to be burned out eventually. Many people who have codependency believe that other people are incapable of self-care. So what do we have to do then? We have to step in to kind of like “save” those people. We try to convince others what to think and what to feel and what to do and how to do things, etc., and we may offer unsolicited advice and directions, and we become resentful if other people are not going to take our advice, or they reject our help, right? Sometimes we focus on others and relationships and something else, whatever it is, just to kind of like escape our inner world. Because if I can fix you or fix that thing, then it gives me satisfaction. So there's always this need to control or fix something or someone, you know, with people. And we mostly fail, because we cannot really control other people. And that becomes an addiction or a sort of a distraction. And, as a result, what we tell ourselves is, “I don't understand why they haven't changed”, or “I've done everything for those people, like what the hell do they need more from me?” and “What are we supposed to do if we cannot help?” Look at this statement: What am I supposed to do if I cannot help them? But we can't answer that. So what do we say? “Okay, I'm going to help them anyway, because I can't do anything else.” That's what we're fixated on. And it's very important at this point to distinguish between caring and caretaking, there's a huge difference. With caretaking, what we are doing is we're giving to other people what we need to give them. It comes from a place of emptiness within us as givers, and there are always unconscious strings attached. However, with caring, we give to others what they need, not what we need to give them. It comes from a place of abundance from us, as opposed to emptiness, and then there are no strings attached. So that's the difference between caretaking and caring. We care take for a number of reasons, and none of those have to do with anything when it comes to love. We give in the ways we would like others to give to us. We give gifts, affection, surprises, back rubs, even sex. We will encourage other people to like take a day off, or buy a new outfit, or go to the doctor, or take a trip, quit a job, go back to school, whatever it is. Yet, we would never give ourselves the permission to do any of these things. 

Amina  29:34
Yeah, so from the codependent’s perspective, there's always some kind of strings attached. They won't say it outright, but in their minds, they either consciously or unconsciously know that there are strings attached. They want either the same exact thing in return to what they're giving, or they just want to be appreciated in some way. They want some kind of reciprocation in whatever form. So this is when they often report they feel frustrated or resentful when they are not getting the same in return. The codependent is typically keeping score in their mind, they're always thinking, “Okay, well, I gave this person X amount of things.” So this is the type that they'll remember things from years ago, you know, “Well I gave you XYZ five years ago”, and the person on the receiving end normally doesn't even remember, because they didn't realize that a score was being kept, and they didn't realize that what they were being given, they had to give something in return. So they're normally totally oblivious to what's going on in the codependent’s head. And then, here, the codependent is experiencing all types of feelings and resentment toward this other person. So, when this frustration and resentment builds up long enough, it spills out in the form of rage attacks, passive-aggressive behavior, pouting, tantrums, withdrawing, shaming, criticizing, blaming, and sometimes even physical abuse. And then, once the cycle has been completed, it usually just begins all over again. The codependent will do the same thing to the same person, or they'll do it to somebody else. 

So some questions to ask to realize if this is what's happening: Do you make cutting remarks or hurtful jokes that are kind of on the line, like you can always play them off as jokes, but they're not really jokes about your partner or your loved ones or your friends? Do you embarrass them in public, kind of like trying to put them down a little bit? Are you frequently late to events with them? Do you just kind of forget things that they've asked you to do? Do you forget to take out the trash, even though you didn't really forget? Do you criticize your friends or your partners? Do you withdraw from them, or do you constantly threaten to leave them? Do you let this frustration build up until you blow up at them? What are your behaviors with your partners, your family members or your friends? Are any of these things happening? A kind of an exercise you can do is ask the people around you, ask your significant others or your family members or friends if you do these things, because they will typically tell you if you are or not, they can be honest with you. Because, typically, people want the behavior to end as well. Yeah, so it's important to just break out of the cycle. So, most codependents are always keeping score, they claim to always be doing these things simply out of kindness of their hearts and all of that, but the reality is that they want something in return. And instead of just being upfront with other people, they expect other people to just know what they want. You know, we all know people like that, we've been put in situations before, where we felt like another person was expecting us to just read their mind, you know, they're saying one thing, but they actually mean the other. And it really sucks to be in that position, because you actually don't know. And so it's kind of a good practice to just tell people what you want and what you need, and just be upfront. Don't expect somebody else to read your mind.

If you need a hug, tell somebody that you need a hug, don't go about it in some roundabout way. I actually had a friend that was just telling me that she would constantly find herself, at the same time, every day, she would be instigating a fight with her partner, and she didn't know why. She would just instigate a fight with her partner, and then, one day, her partner just went up to her, just held her and then everything was fine. And she realized, “I've just been instigating these fights, because I didn't know how to tell my partner that, ‘hey, I just want a hug, that’s all I need’ instead of some roundabout way.” So, many codependents can be passive-aggressive, and we've all been in those situations dealing with passive-aggressive people. They tend to express their frustration and resentment in these indirect and roundabout and not so nice ways. And this can include being unavailable and just forgetting, being late, not following through, just repeating all these same really annoying behaviors, even when they have promised to never do them again. 

Waheed  34:46
Absolutely. Yep. And another major aspect of codependency is being perfectionists. We're obsessed with trying to keep our lives smooth and uneventful, we try to do it right, we “follow the rules”, we're so afraid of the uncertainty that comes with change and difference. But, unfortunately, all of this is the most effective way to stifle our creativity and kill our passion, and it prevents us from living up to our true full potential. We strive for perfectionism, and it keeps us focused on our imperfections, ironically, right? We attempt to hide all our flaws and mistakes, and that prevents us from actually taking risks or trying something new. We follow the rules, it makes us so rigid, it makes us cautious, it makes us fearful. We're not saying we need to break the rules, but we follow the rules to the tee, we're so inflexible, it makes us very fearful and anxious. You know, we impose a lot of limits on ourselves that we become so dissatisfied, bored, unhappy with our lives, unhappy with our careers and what we do, right? We all desire, love and connection, but these behaviors kind of like make this invisible force field that keeps us away from people who are trying to be close to us. We have a difficult time understanding that, in general, people are not really drawn to perfection in others, but they are drawn to our shared interests, problems that we have, our life energy and connection. We connect with others. If we hide our humanity and try to kind of like project an image of perfection, it makes us really seem vague, lifeless and uninteresting to people. We've been talking about this so many times in the podcast, that genuine connection means vulnerability, and, you know, dropping those masks and actually showing our wounds to people who have earned the right and the privilege to hear our story, and developing that intimate connection with them. So perfectionism goes against all of that, because we're hiding behind this facade, that we are perfect, when no human is perfect. And, as a result, we have difficulty asking for help. We believe we should be able to do everything on our own, we have a very difficult time actually asking for help, and we try to hide any signs of imperfection or weakness. And so, as a result, we become isolated. On the one hand, we desire to be loved and liked, but on the other hand, our behaviors make it very difficult for people to get very close to us, as a result of all of that, right? 

Amina  37:38
Yeah, definitely. And I think that most codependents are just acting out of fear. Everything is just fear-based. Pretty much everything that a codependent does or doesn't do is governed by fear. This can be seen in, you know, the fear of demanding a raise, even though the person has been promised a raise, or the fear from going back to school because of what other people will think if they're going back to school at an older age, or the fear of changing careers, the fear from relocating to a place that the person actually really wants to live at, because of the fear of the relocation costs or the fear of what other people will think… Just everything is just so fear-based. And I think it's because codependents are just inherently afraid of making any type of mistake - any type of mistake that somebody is going to be able to criticize them about or invalidate them about, they're really afraid of failure and just losing it all. 

But then also, on the other hand, codependents are afraid of success, because they don't want to be found out that they're just frauds, that they won't be able to live up to other people's expectations of them. They don't want to lose control over their entire lives, they will be criticized, you know, if they're too successful, they won't be able to handle these increased expectations. And then they're also really afraid that once they achieve success, they're just going to mess it all up and lose everything. So then, because of this, codependents are typically good at looking just good enough, they're not the types that are going to exceed all expectations. They're better at just being almost average. But to be really great, to rise to the very top, that's going to invite so much unwanted attention and scrutiny. So, consequently, codependents just find many creative ways to make sure they are never too successful. So if they don't start something, then they won't fail. If they don't finish something, they won't be criticized. If they have too much going on at once, they won't have to do any one thing well. Actually, I've found this about myself, it was a few years ago, I realized, you know, I'm the type of person that can give a 50% effort into anything, and I can kind of get max results. And that's just purely genetics. My parents were really awesome people and passed on really awesome genetics to me. So I didn't really have to try very hard like the next person to get max results. And so I started thinking, “Man, what if I gave 100% effort into just any one thing, what could I achieve?” You know, because I was always the type that was really good at snowboarding, but really good at basketball and all these things, but if I just put all my effort into one thing, man, I could be really good at it! Yeah, just always never being quite perfect at any one thing, or never devoting all of your attention to one thing, and never finishing one thing. The amount of projects that I have started and not finished is pretty incredible, it would be a big list. 

But so rather than facing these fears, whether they're real fears, you know, some of these fears are actually real, or they're just imagined fears, codependents will typically just settle for operating at a fraction of their full potential, kind of like what I was talking about, I settle for giving 50% effort into everything that I do. Rather, I could give 100% effort into everything I do, and where could I be then, you know, somewhere super amazing. So they operate at a fraction of full potential, and they can engage in self sabotage, because you're not operating at full potential, right? So, codependents will undermine their success, by wasting time, they make excuses, not finishing projects, and then they care take other people. So, you know, if you're constantly taking care of other people, it takes away your time to do your own projects. I have found that codependents are the ones that are just always busy, right? They always have a million tasks going on, never finishing one. 

Waheed  42:11
Absolutely. And I identify with what you're saying, basically, like, it just makes a lot of sense, subhan Allah. Another characteristic that applies to a lot of people dealing with codependency is that we have a distorted self-image. Because we had that inability to fix or please or take care of one or both parents that we had, many of us develop this deep-seated sense of being inadequate. We felt that we should be able to do a particular thing, but we never seemed to be able to do it right, or to be good enough, right? No matter what we did, mom was still depressed, dad was still critical, and so on and so forth. So, we internalized that sense of inadequacy and ineffectiveness that we carried on into our adulthood, which is part of that core shame that we talked about. So, many of us compensate by trying to do everything right. We hope that if we do everything right, no one will ever find out about how inadequate we really are, which is part of our self-perception. And so while other people would just give up before they even try, because this sense of inadequacy prevents them from making themselves visible and taking chances and taking risks and trying something new, it keeps them in that same old rut and behavioral patterns, never seeing how really talented or intelligent they really are. Everyone around them can actually see that, but because they have this distorted childhood lens and this paradigm through which they observe the world, they don't really see their true potential and their true abilities. And, as a result of this distorted self-image, you know, they create this emotional and cognitive “glass ceiling” as it's referred to, this ‘lid’ that prevents them from really being all they can be. If we really tried to rise above that ‘lid’ or that glass ceiling that we've created, we kind of like bump our heads and we tumble down, because we are used to this familiar territory, we're so afraid of getting out of our comfort zones. 

Amina  44:25
Yeah. And codependents frequently have problems in intimate relationships. So their intimate relationships are frequently a source of struggle and frustration. For example, if you're too busy trying to figure out how to defend yourself or fix another person's problem, because of your fear of conflict, then it causes you to be frequently dishonest, and you're rarely available to work all the way through a problem with another person. So, these are the types that might form relationships with partners who they believe to be “projects” or “diamonds in the rough”, kind of back at that savior/rescuer mentality, trying to find people to help and work on. And then when these projects don't polish up as expected, codependents tend to blame their partner for standing in the way of their happiness. And I've seen this a lot where, you know, one partner will move to another city or something for their other partner’s job or to be closer to family or whatever it is. But then the codependent is not actually getting what they need or what they want. And then in the end, if the relationship dissolves, or whatever it is, the codependent will blame the other person, “Well, oh, I had to move all the way over here, and then I couldn't find a job here,” or whatever it is, they're blaming the other person, when, really, that was the codependent’s choice. What they should have done was to actually voice what they needed and what they wanted in the beginning. 

Intimacy implies vulnerability, and intimacy requires two people who are willing to courageously look inward and make themselves totally visible to one another. Internalized toxic shame makes this kind of exposure feel life-threatening for codependents, because being known means being found out. And all the codependents have worked their entire lives to become what they believe others want them to be, while trying to hide their perceived flaws. So, the demands of intimacy represent everything that codependents run away from and fear the most. And so, they tend to recreate these familiar yet dissatisfying relationships all the time, continuing the pattern and continuing the cycle. And they find partners who will help them create that same dysfunctional kind of relationship they experienced as children. So, for example, if you're listening to your mother's problems as a child, they gave the codependent the sense of connection, and this child may grow up believing that such behavior equals intimacy. So, in order to feel valuable and connected in their adult relationships, they will have to pick a partner who has their fair share of problems, the same problems that your mother was always telling you about. So, if the codependent was trained to care take and fix needy or dependent family members, then the codependent will find a way to do the same in their adult relationships. And so, if the codependent believed they could only get their own needs met after they met the needs of other more important people, like the needy family member, then the codependent would sacrifice themselves for the sake of their partner, basically just recreating that childhood incident. And so, if the child was abandoned during childhood, then they may also choose partners who are unavailable or unfaithful. If the child grew up with angry, demeaning or controlling parents, then they may choose a partner with these similar traits later on in life. 

Waheed  48:12
Absolutely. You know, for a lot of people who struggle with codependency, the moment that they actually enter a relationship, they start to balance two things, which is their fear of vulnerability, and then their fear of isolation. “I'm afraid of being vulnerable, I'm afraid of other people getting close and seeing how ‘bad’ I am, because if they see how ‘bad’ I am them, they will hurt me or shame me or leave me. So I try to build those walls to prevent them from getting too close. But at the same time, I'm so afraid of isolation.” So we end up recreating those childhood abandonment and terrifying memories. So, it becomes an act of balancing these two things: “I'm afraid of being too close to people, but at the same time, I don't want them to leave me or abandon me.” So, a lot of us end up finding people who are equally wounded and also have their own difficulty with intimacy. And it becomes a very volatile relationship or friendship or whatever that bond is. So, you know, it becomes a relationship that actually frustrates all parties while protecting us from the fear of being found out. And it's very true that, eventually, a lot of people with codependency end up picking spouses or friends who appear to be “projects”, and a lot of us end up, you know, picking some pretty messed up people who have deep issues. So, the fact that those people may have particular challenges or particular problems, whether it's like financial issues, anger issues, addiction issues, depression, issues with being faithful in that relationship or whatever it is, those issues are particularly the reasons why a lot of us actually invite those people into our lives. As long as the attention is focused on the flaws of the other person, then I can direct any attention from the internalized toxic shame, the core shame that I have, right? 

Amina  50:18
Yeah, and so codependents may be enmeshed or avoiders. Enmeshed is becoming overly involved in an intimate relationship at the expense of oneself and other outside interests, while the avoider is kind of the opposite, where they are being emotionally unavailable to a primary partner, while playing this codependent role outside of the relationship (so at their job, with friends or parents). Both patterns, enmeshing and avoiding, inhibit any real kind of intimacy from occurring. So they may help the codependent feel safe, but they won't actually help him/her feel real love. So, codependents frequently see themselves as being victims to the dysfunction of their partners, they have a difficult time seeing that they were attracted to these people for a reason in the first place. And when a healthy person would pack up and move on from the relationship, codependents just keep doing more of the same in their subsequent relationships, hoping that something will miraculously change. This is kind of like the common saying of, you know, “It doesn't really matter where you move, your problems will follow you,” because you're still the same person. It doesn't matter if you move to a different city, or what, you're still the same person. So it's the same thing in these relationships, a codependent will always be the same in these relationships, because they're still the same person if they haven't worked on themselves. 

So they're attracted to these careers and work situations that allow them to recreate the dysfunctional roles and relationships and rules of their childhood. And they often see themselves as just helpless victims in these situations, and rarely will a codependent actually see why they need these systems to be the way they are, and that they have the choice to just leave them. So, codependents tend to be attracted to people who have some of the worst traits from one or both of our parents. Instead of blaming your partner for your unconscious choice, just identify the ways in which your partner helps you recreate these familiar relationship patterns from your childhood. And then you can share this with the people in your life, you can share this with your partner or your friends or family members. 

Codependents are also typically bad enders to any friendship or relationship. They have difficulty getting the love they want, because they spend too much time trying to make these bad relationships work, and they’re the types that are just looking for love in all the wrong places. And if a codependent spends all the time stuck in a bad relationship, it pretty much guarantees the codependent won't find one that would work better. And when healthy individuals would recognize that they've created a relationship that is not a good fit, or that a partner they chose lacks the basic qualities they desire, then they would just move on. But codependents don't, because due to their conditioning, they just keep trying harder to get this non-workable situation to work, or to get someone to be something they're not. This tendency just really frustrates everybody involved. And even when codependents try to end the relationship, or they do end a relationship, they're typically not very good at it, and they'll frequently do it too late, or they'll be indirect and blaming or deceitful. And they typically have to do it many times before it actually just sticks. And I found this to be true. When I was breaking up with my ex-wife, I was constantly going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. It was never very clear cut, until one day I just got the confidence to just make it clear cut and say, “Hey, no, we're getting divorced, and that's it. We're not coming back to each other.” But even, besides her, I found this in many of my relationships in general, with my ex-partners, it was always just back and forth. 

Waheed  54:35
Right, which is very toxic, eventually, and too draining for both parties involved.

Amina  54:39
Yeah, definitely. And actually, my mom, she would always tell me something that always stuck with me. But she said, this kind of talks about, you know, when you choose a partner that lacks the basic qualities you desire, she would always tell me, “If you want a partner that doesn't drink or doesn't smoke, don't choose a partner that drinks and smokes, thinking that they're going to change for you. Choose a partner that just doesn't drink or doesn't smoke.” And it's just such a basic idea, and it really makes so much sense, because codependents, instead of choosing somebody that just doesn't smoke or doesn't drink, they'll go and they'll choose somebody who smokes and drinks, thinking that they can make this person change for them. And so, it's already this foundation of a really rocky relationship.  

Waheed  55:30
Exactly. Beautifully said, by the way, and lots of hugs to mom, MashaAllah. And as you were saying that a lot of people struggling with codependency or SLDD would have problems in intimate relationships, based on everything that we've been talking about, a lot of them also struggle with sexuality, right? You know, they have problems with sex. Many might be dissatisfied with their sex life, they might have sexual dysfunctions, or they might have the tendency to sexually act out, meaning, you know, they might be having affairs when they're married, or they might be having addiction to pornography, compulsive masturbation or just hooking up with people sexually, etc. So this is actually a common theme that we find. And, you know, if we want to kind of like have a general umbrella theme for all of this behavior, it's numbing behavior. So, it's very common to have addiction or numbing behaviors, because of all of the stress that we've been talking about, all of these characteristics and all of the original trauma, it's very stressful to deal with. So there needs to be a way to relieve that stress and to change the mood and to kind of like “medicate” the pain again, right? So a lot of people struggling with codependency will resort to numbing behaviors, because we tend to keep so much bottled up inside, it has to come out somewhere. And, you know, one of the most common addictive behaviors is sexual compulsiveness. So this is one thing to watch out for. And we will be talking about sexual addictions later on, inshaAllah, this season. 

57:15
A very important theme that we need to discuss is the struggle of men, in particular, with codependency, and this is very common to, you know, men in general who struggle with their sense of masculinity, but this also applies to men who struggle with or experience same-sex attractions. You know, there's an element of codependency that's involved. You know, we've talked about this theme over and over, a lot of us didn't have a close bonded relationship with our fathers in childhood, either because the father was not present, or he was withdrawn or passive or even abusive. Many of us actually made this conscious decision to kind of be different from our fathers. Another thing is that many of us didn't have a lot of very close male friends. And, instead, a lot of us gravitated more towards our moms who are close to us instead, and we kind of like adopted a feminine perspective on masculinity, right? We were comfortable in having our manhood defined by women. We frequently sought the approval of women, and we convinced ourselves that we are different from other men. We'd like to believe that we are not selfish, we're not angry, we're not abusive, and other traits that we kind of associated with “other men”. 

Sometimes we found ourselves trying to please a very angry mom, or a very critical mom, or a controlling, overbearing mom. More often than not, this bond that we found ourselves in was the result of being actually forced to take care of this mom who may have been needy, or dependent or actually smothering, in some cases. And without having a supportive father in the picture, a lot of us, as boys, we had to negotiate this situation that was kind of like impossible and beyond us. And so, on the one hand, we had to please this angry or controlling or smothering, overbearing mother, or become mother’s “little partner”, and on the other hand, that absent or abusive or neglectful father, this kind of created this dynamic in which we found ourselves unconsciously becoming “monogamous” to our moms. We weren't able to individuate in a healthy way and kind of separate from the mother figure. And so a lot of us found ourselves in this situation where we said, “I'm not comfortable with other men”, “I don't know what to talk about when I'm with other men”, “Most men are just jerks”, “I used to have male friends, but then, when I got married, my wife made it such a hassle to do things with my male friends, so I just gave up completely”, or you know the common situation or the common saying that “I tend to be a loner, I don't want other people, I'm just comfortable flying solo”, right? 

So many of us, codependent men or men with SSA, a lot of us have difficulty connecting with other men because of the limited positive male contact that we've had over the years, that we've experienced throughout childhood and adolescence and adulthood. And because a lot of us didn't have a positive bond with our fathers, we never learned the basic skills that were necessary to build meaningful relationships with other men. You know, masculinity is earned, and it's a rite of passage to actually do certain things and learn certain skills in order to develop our sense of masculinity. A lot of us didn't have that. And a lot of us eventually ended up feeling that we are just different from other men, right? “We're different. We don't click with them.” And so, this kind of distorted thinking usually began in childhood, when we tried to be different from our fathers whom we didn't see, in our eyes, as good enough. And so, in adulthood, we often create similar dynamics with men, in general. We distance ourselves from them, or we think that they're not good enough, or we might not be good enough in their eyes. So, the conclusion is that, as long as we are disconnected from men or believe that we are different from them, we will cut them off from our lives, and we therefore cut ourselves off from so many benefits of male companionship, male bonding, and the power of having a healthy, masculine community that we need in order to thrive and survive and live our full potential as men in particular. 

Amina  1:01:46
Yeah, this is a common scenario where there's a controlling or perfectionist father, and the father put unrealistic demands on the kids, so the type that says, you know, that there's just one right way to do everything. They have to follow the way that he says, there's no other way. And then the mother is being emotionally dependent and who lives through her kids, you know, her kids are her success. And when the mother is needy, then she would smother her kids, but when the children had needs, she often was too emotionally distressed to respond to the children's needs. So she was relying on the children to satisfy her emotional needs but not reciprocating. And then, as a result, how would these kids cope? They would believe that if they could figure out how to do everything right, then the kids could garner their father's approval and avoid the criticism. And if the kids responded to the mother's neediness by being attentive and nurturing, then she would be available to them when they had their own needs. And if they didn't cause any problems, they would get love and approval. If they hid their mistakes, no one would ever get mad at them. But the problem is, no matter what the kids did, they would never live up to their father's expectation or get their mom to nurture them in a safe and healthy way. So there's no way to do everything right. And people still get angry no matter how well they did to hide their mistakes. So the only option that the kids could see was to keep trying harder, and doing more of the same thing. The only thing their paradigm ever really did was to create a distraction from their feelings of fear and worthlessness and inadequacy. 

Waheed  1:03:43
Absolutely. And this we can actually see replicated in the lives of so many men who struggle with codependency and/or same-sex attractions, who eventually get married and have their own families, they replicate this scenario with their wives. Like the mother figure who we’ve just described, the wife might actually be only attentive when she would be emotionally needy. And similar to the father, she could actually be critical and controlling. So, by applying that paradigm and that roadmap to his marriage, trying to do everything right, and being attentive and nurturing and never being problematic whatsoever, avoiding conflicts and hiding his mistakes, and basically everything that we've been talking about, he creates this illusion that he could get his wife to approve of him all the time, and to even be sexually available whenever he wanted. Like, “If I could do everything right and if I want to kind of like be sexually intimate with my wife, and I would get her to be that and to never get mad at me.” But this problematic way of looking at things and doing things prevents men who struggle with that from actually seeing that no matter what you do, your wife is going to still be having her own set of independent emotions and being maybe cold at some points, critical at other points, unavailable at some points, and maybe, you know, you actually need her to be that way sometimes, because we're all humans, right? And even when this paradigm is ineffective in adulthood as it was in childhood, because of all of the coping strategies that we grew up developing, the only option is, again, even if it sucks, we keep on trying harder and doing more of the same. And this strategy never works, right? 

Amina  1:05:40
Yeah, and when the man is continuously seeking the woman's approval, it actually gives women the power to define men and determine the man's worth, when really they don't need the woman's approval to determine their own worth. And so, these codependent men, they will constantly report that their own moods are often tied to the moods of their partner. If she's happy and doing okay, then so is he, and if she's angry, depressed or stressed, then he'll feel anxious until she's fixed or feeling better. And then, if the woman says he is wrong, or thinks that he's a jerk, or whatever it is, then the guy will be inclined to believe that she is right. And even if he argues with the woman's evaluation, at some level, he knows that, since she is the woman, she must be right.. And that’s right by the way! 

Waheed  1:06:42
Not always, but okay! 

Amina  1:06:47
I just feel like, if people just realize that the woman's always right, things would go a lot smoother, you know? All arguments would end. 

Waheed  1:06:55
Oh, please. Okay, well, I'm not sexist or anything. I mean, I'm pro-women, but I'm also pro-men. So let's just be balanced?! 

Amina  1:07:10
Anyways. So when the codependent guy puts a woman or women on a pedestal, and attempts to win their approval, sooner or later, this adoration will turn to rage when these “objects of worship” fail to live up to their expectations, and there's a lot of bottled up anger in these situations. The irony of it all is that women, we actually view men who try to please us constantly, so if a man is constantly trying to please me, we view them as weak, and we hold these men in contempt. And most women do not want a man who tries to please them. They want a man who knows how to please himself and stand up for himself. A real man, not someone who's just passive and pleasing all the time. 

Waheed  1:07:52
Amen! Hearing this from a woman puts things in perspective, right? Thanks for saying that. I'm not trying to please you constantly, right? 

Amina  1:08:10
Haha! I wish you would though! 

Waheed  1:08:11
Aha, keep dreaming. And yeah, basically, what we’ve been saying is that a lot of those men, in particular, they have problems with masculinity. And the way that we define masculinity is this healthy form of masculinity, not the toxic masculinity that we are against. So, proper, healthy masculinity actually empowers a man to create and produce things, it empowers the man to provide for, and to actually protect, those who are important to him, those who are under his wing, so to speak, the people he's in charge of, his family, the people Allah assigned to be under his protection and care. You know, when we think of proper, healthy masculinity, we think of strength, discipline, courage, passion, persistence, integrity, right? A lot of people, a lot of men who are dealing with codependency or same-sex attractions are actually afraid of the other aspects that masculinity involves, like the potential for aggressiveness and destructiveness and brutality, which are things that must be kept under control. We, as guys dealing with this, we tend to avoid the “dark side” of masculinity. But, as a result, we also repress other aspects of the male energy, and we tend to lose a lot of assertiveness and competitiveness and creativity and this thirst for experience, as a result of that. And one of the most important aspects of repressing this masculine energy is that we end up lacking leadership in our families, when we get married and have kids, because we are too afraid of upsetting our wives, or appearing too much like that controlling, authoritarian or abusive father that we try to avoid, then we go to the opposite end of the spectrum, and then we fail to become the leader that our family really needs. As a result, consequently, what happens is that this job of the family leader ends up falling on the wives, right? Most of the women don't want that “job”, but they end up taking it by default, because the family needs someone to steer the wheel. 

1:10:38
So everything that we've been talking about throughout this episode, this is a general list of characteristics, again. It's a spectrum, and not everyone dealing with codependency is going to fulfill each and every criterion. Some will gravitate towards particular characteristics compared to other characteristics, and that's fine. So just see what resonates with you, and see if you tick any boxes, and if anything really like opens up in your mind, certain aspects of yourself that you didn't even realize about yourself. As we mentioned before, it was like a slap in the face when we did this research, because a lot of things resonated with us. But you know, as painful as it was to kind of like, unravel these realities, the work is necessary, because now we'll be talking about healing and recovery from all of that, so that is kind of necessary to realize. And, again, Ross Rosenberg, we spoke about him earlier, he divided codependency into two types: there's passive and there's active codependency. So when someone has passive codependency, it means that the person is really passive when it comes to conflict. So they're fearful, they avoid conflict, they have low self-esteem. In the presence of fear, they are intimidated, they're frozen, they try to passively manipulate others and to control others. And they play the role of the martyr in many cases. Whereas with active codependency, what happens is that they are more overt and bold in their manipulation, they're not afraid of putting themselves in conflict. They're really argumentative and confrontational, and they're more overt than the passive codependent type.

Amina  1:12:21
Yeah. And also, people struggling with codependency, they have a higher chance of being in relationship, whether it's romantic, parent, friend, colleague, etc. with a pathological narcissist, i.e. people with narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, or people with addiction disorders. And those people are generally deeply ingrained with themselves, and they project the blame on others, and they resist change despite consequences. They have troubles relating to situations and people, have rigid and inflexible thoughts and behavioral patterns, impaired impulse control and moods, as well as just unaware of the harm they cause others. So they're unable to take charge and change themselves, they can kind of be arrogant or grandiose and vain. So Rosenberg, Waheed had talked about this a little bit earlier, he coined this term the “Human Magnet Syndrome”, to describe the relationship between codependents and pathological narcissist where they attract like magnets. And I think this is because codependents tend to be caretakers, and then people with borderline personality disorder or narcissistic personality disorder, they're seeking attention and to be taken care of. So then, obviously, the two would just attract. And then that's when it becomes just a roller coaster, because both the codependents and the persons with these disorders have strong fears of abandonment, but they also at the same time crave independence. So when one will start to pull away, the other will become afraid of the abandonment, because the other one is becoming more independent. And so, then, the one afraid of abandonment will start becoming clingy, and then vice versa, and it's just this endless back and forth. 

Waheed  1:14:20
Absolutely. People might be thinking, “So what's the difference between being an empath and being a codependent?” It might be blurry at this point. So let's just explain this. Some people might actually be empaths but not codependent, other people will be codependent but not empaths, and some people might actually be both at the same time. An empath, by definition, is a person who can take other people's emotions in and put him/herself in their shoes, to feel what they're feeling, to try and imagine what they are going through, whereas a codependent is someone who takes other people's emotions on, he/she carries those emotions on, and they tend to feel responsible for other people's emotions, and they make it a priority for the other person not to feel this way anymore, so that they can feel okay again. They get weighed down by emotions, and they get thrown off by other people's emotions, and they have this tendency to try and fix people at all costs. We need others to be okay, so that we are okay. I derive my sense of self-worth from taking care of other people. So that's codependence. Our emotional state is dependent on other people's emotional states. 

The difference between an empath and a codependent is the difference between saying, “I understand you and feel you”, versus “I need to fix you”. So we see the difference between them. Being an empath means having the emotional and mental well-being not tied to the outcome that I want, versus being codependent, which means that they have to be tied to the outcome of fixing the other person. And another point that we need to mention is that codependents would sometimes lack empathy for other people's feelings or needs when they are under stress, right? We want them to do this or feel a certain way, because we believe that it is good for them. It's coming from us, I know that it will be good for you, you have to do this. But this is not empathy, right? We're not empathizing with them, since we are not seeing their problem, or what they are going through, from their own perspective, we're seeing it from our own perspective. So it's important to actually accept that they are not okay, and to accept that we can’t really heal or fix them. And that would be, you know, part of empathy. But with codependency, we can't really accept that they're not okay, or that we can't really fix them, and we take it on ourselves to fix them or heal them, if that makes sense. 

Amina  1:17:02
Yeah, definitely. I do this all the time, where I'm always trying, I always give people advice, what has worked for me, and I just expect it to work for them. But we come from two completely different worlds. And I'm like, “Just do it!” 

Waheed  1:17:18
Yeah, exactly. And you're like, “Oh, my God, I gave them advice, why haven't they done that already?” Like, you know, “Why the heck, what else do they need from me?” Like, they don't even need us, but yeah. 

Amina  1:17:32
Yeah. I really understood the term empathy from psychologists, because I started really looking at how psychologists operate. And I would say that the really good psychologists are very empathic. And I noticed that they are not tied to the outcome of the client's life. Like, in general, they just want the client to be overall better or whatever. But good psychologists, if you come in, they will ask you, “What do you want to get out of this?” So it's already automatically all about the other person. And so the goal is to meet whatever the goal the person has. So that's not the goal of the psychologist. So they're not tied to any outcome. And then, throughout the process, they are always relying on the client to do the problem solving. So the psychologist doesn't just want to give all the answers, they always just ask, you know, “What do you think you should do?” Or “What do you think?” Yeah, so I've really learned empathy from psychologists. And then I have some friends who are very good at this, where they problem solve with you, but they don't give you the solution. They just work with you to solve it. So it's really more empowering, I think, rather than taking away someone else's power. 

Waheed  1:19:03
Exactly, beautifully said. Right. 

1:19:12
In the last part of this episode, we're going to be talking about emotional dependency. So what's the difference between dependency and codependency? So, we've seen that, with codependency, the relationship is actually based on trying to fix the other person, and then going out of our ways to helping them at the expense of our own detriment. We react to other people's actions, our wounds feed their wounds, and their wounds feed our wounds. So if we think about an arrow moving from one person to another, it's like it's moving in both directions: from one partner to the other, and then from the other partner to the first one, it goes in both directions. Whereas with dependency, you know, someone who is emotionally dependent, they latch on to the other person, they want them only for them, they become possessive, and they demand exclusivity, you know, it becomes very, very intense. It's like, “My survival depends on you, I need you in my life to meet my needs. I don't know who I am without you.” And this emotional dependency stems from legitimate needs that have not been met growing up in our childhood. And, again, going back to attachment trauma, there has been attachment trauma that led to a lot of abandonment issues growing up. And so, in adulthood, when we find someone that we can latch on to, it becomes like that emotionally dependent relationship. And so, these needs become sought in this very dysfunctional way that creates a lot of tension. So what are the characteristics in general of people who engage in emotional dependency?

Amina  1:20:57
So some general characteristics is that these dependent relationships will begin very suddenly and intensely, whereas normal friendships normally take more time and develop gradually. The relationships are really attached. The people feel threatened, or they get really high levels of anxiety when they're apart from each other. It becomes very jealous and possessive, it demands exclusivity and complete 24/7 attention via text, calls or being in the same physical space as each other. And they typically want one-on-one time, so not group times, and not hanging out with friends, but they just want to be one-on-one. Others are kind of viewed as a threat to their exclusive relationship. 

Waheed  1:21:46
Absolutely. And so, as you said, you know, they constantly think about the other person, who they're with, what they're doing, what they're thinking, why they haven't picked up the phone, why they haven't answered my message, even though I see the blue ticks on their WhatsApp, etc.? And then, they start blaming themselves, you know, “Oh, my God, did I do something wrong? Do they still love me? Are they with someone else? What is happening? Are they going to abandon me?” etc. And sometimes, you know, we start losing interest in other things that are going on in life, whether it's our work, our hobbies, our friends, families, even if we're married, to our spouse, and we just focus on that relationship or that friendship. So it becomes detrimental, because we start losing focus, and it comes at the expense of everything else that's going on in our lives, you know? 

Amina  1:22:47
Yeah, basically everything I do with you!

Waheed  1:22:49
Oh, dear Lord, don’t even..! We're joking people, this is obviously not a dependent or codependent relationship. We're just friends! 

Amina  1:22:56
If that’s what you want to call it! And then, sometimes, they involve romantic elements, fantasizing about the other person romantically or sexually, lengthy romantic touching and gazing, sort of preoccupation with what they're doing, their appearance. And then the idealization: you're seeing them as perfect, you're putting them on that pedestal where they have no mistakes, you're always defending them, speaking on their behalf, only making plans to involve them, and you start centering your schedule and your plans around that person. 

Waheed  1:23:31
Right. And sometimes, when there's a display of affection, it becomes too much or too inappropriate. Like, for example, too much hugging, too much closeness, even when you're with other people, like people start wondering, “What is going on here? This is just too much!” But then someone might argue, particularly on their recovery or healing journey, “Well you said I need to meet my unmet needs, my unmet physical or touch needs. And this person, you know, it's a platonic relationship, so I'm not doing anything wrong!” But again, you know, this just happens with one person, it doesn't happen with others. So this is kind of problematic, right? There's only this person. And these behaviors make other people uncomfortable. So this is a question mark here. Like if this is not happening, if this is not a balanced relationship with other people, then why this “exclusivity” or this dependence on one person? So this puts things in perspective.

Amina  1:24:29
Yeah, and then there's manipulation involved. So, when these behaviors or actions are not reciprocated, and the needs aren't met, then manipulation can take place, sometimes in the form of passive-aggressive behavior, like there's exaggerated praise, there's too many affirmations, creating drama and exaggerating issues to foster other’s sympathy. Saying those words like “I can't make it without you. I'll die. I need you. You're the only one who can help me, I can't survive without you. You're the only person for me!” Guilting the other person, “You should know what I want without me asking for it,” that type of mind reading, “You made me feel bad, so it's your fault you did or said this, and so now I feel bad.” So really guilting the other person and feeling bad. And then, when the other person sets boundaries, you retaliate with silent treatments, or showing disdain or even sometimes suicidal threats, like saying, “Oh, I'll kill myself if you leave me,” undermining the other person's friendships or relationships and family to exclude them, and then have them just for yourself. So that isolating type of behavior.

Waheed  1:25:46
And, you know, when we don't have deliberate, healthy and focused interventions to actually help us in support and probably therapy even, eventually what happens is that any emotionally dependent relationship that operates based on these characteristics is doomed to fail and crash and burn. Sooner or later, that's going to happen. So the sooner the individual is going to seek professional and healthy interventions, the more likely it is that this emotionally dependent relationship can change and be transformed into a healthy friendship that is maybe healing and supportive in our journeys. 

1:26:35
And with this, we have come to the end of today's episode on understanding the characteristics of codependency and emotional dependency. In the next episode, inshaAllah, Amina and I are going to be talking about healing from attachments, codependency and emotional dependency through a two-episode series, inshaAllah. Until then, stay safe and healthy, and Amina and I look forward to talking to you very soon. This has been Amina and Waheed Jensen in “A Way Beyond the Rainbow”, assalamu alaikom wa rahmatullahi ta’ala wabarakatuh.

Episode Introduction
On the Characteristics of Codependency
On Struggling with Masculinity
On the Human Magnet Syndrome
On the Difference between Codependency and Empathy
On Emotional Dependency
Ending Remarks