A Way Beyond the Rainbow

#51 - On Healing Codependency and Emotional Dependency (Part II)

August 13, 2021 Amina and Waheed Jensen Season 4 Episode 11
A Way Beyond the Rainbow
#51 - On Healing Codependency and Emotional Dependency (Part II)
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

This is part II of a 2-episode series on healing codependency and emotional dependency. In this episode, Amina and I discuss how to reclaim our place and power in relationships, how to help men reclaim their masculinity, how to reconnect with our path and purpose, as well as how to begin to heal emotional dependency.

How do I feel more secure in my friendships and romantic relationships? How can a cost-benefit analysis help me continue with or sever a relationship? How can men dealing with codependency and/or same-sex attractions reclaim their sense of masculinity and feel like "men among other men"? How do I begin to chart my own path in life and connect with my purpose? How do I deal with procrastination along the way? If I am in an emotionally dependent relationship, is there hope for healing and growth, or should I sever that relationship altogether? These and other questions are explored in this episode.

References used and resources mentioned in this episode:
- Facing Codependence: What It Is, Where It Comes from, How It Sabotages Our Lives by Pia Mellody
- Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself by Melody Beattle
- No More Mr. Nice Guy by Dr. Robert Glover
- How To Do The Work by Dr. Nicole LePera
- Ross Rosenberg’s videos on codependency
- "When Friendships Become Toxic: Understanding Emotional Dependency" webinar by Brothers Road

Additional resources (support groups, books):
- Co-Dependents Anonymous (CoDa) international website
- The Language of Letting Go: Daily Meditations for Codependents by Melody Beattle
- The New Codependency: Help and Guidance for Today's Generation by Melody Beattle
- You're Not Crazy - You're Codependent.: What Everyone Affected by Addiction, Abuse, Trauma or Toxic Shaming Must know to have peace in their lives by Jeanette Elisabeth Menter
- The Road Back to Me: Healing and Recovering From Co-dependency, Addiction, Enabling, and Low Self Esteem by Lisa Romano
- Prodependence: Moving Beyond Codependency by Robert Weiss

Waheed  00:39
Assalamu alaikom wa rahmatullahi ta’ala wa barakatuh, and welcome back to “A Way Beyond the Rainbow”, this podcast series dedicated to Muslims experiencing same-sex attractions who want to live a life true to Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala and Islam. I'm your host, Waheed Jensen, and joining me again in today's episode is my dear friend Amina, and we will be picking up from where we left off in the last episode. So, in the previous episode, we spoke about the idea of starting to heal from codependency and emotional dependency by reclaiming our personal power, and we talked about a lot of practical steps. And in today's episode, we will be talking about how to heal our relationships and reclaim our place and power in those relationships, we will talk about how to heal our masculinity, particularly for men, and then how to focus on passion, work, life and our careers, and to tie everything together from the healing and recovery perspective. So let's get started.

01:40
So when we want to talk about intimate relationships, generally they are an area of great frustration and confusion for a lot of people struggling with codependency, intimacy and sexual issues are quite common. Even though for a lot of us codependents, we have a deep desire to be intimately connected with another individual, there is this core toxic shame and all of these childhood survival mechanisms that we talked about that kind of make these connections difficult and problematic. And, at the end of the day, there are no perfect relationships, there are no perfect partners, siblings, parents, bosses or friends, etc. Whatever these relationships are, they are, by nature, chaotic, eventful, and challenging, and that is very important to realize, right? So what are some of the pieces of advice that we can talk about when it comes to relationships, in order to recover from codependency?

Amina  02:41
I would say the first thing is just being who you are without any type of reservation. So deciding what is right for you, and then just be that with all of your energy for the whole world to see. So the people that like you for who you are, they will hang around, and then the people that don't, they won't. And that is okay. Because, on the other hand, it is completely exhausting if you have to hide who you are just for somebody to like you, and then it's kind of just this relationship that's builds on a rocky foundation, and it's built on lies, and it's very hard to keep up. No one really wants to believe that they have to be false, or hide who they really are to get someone to love them or to stay with them, but it's such a common dynamic in these intimate relationships that the codependent creates. So just like you are going to be who you are and who you want to be, it's also important to let others be exactly who they want to be. You don't have to control them. And you always wanting to control them is because you have let their actions affect your life so deeply, so you think that other people's actions have to affect your life and your feelings, but they don't. So don't try to manipulate and control their life. Just let others be exactly who they want to be.

Waheed  04:18
Amen. Absolutely. And another aspect that we keep on mentioning over and over again is boundaries, right? And, again, we will be talking about this in an entire episode, a full episode on boundaries. But it's very important to realize that, in relationships, sometimes we really tolerate a lot of intolerable behavior. We avoid dealing with a situation, because it might cause conflict, we don't ask for what we want, we sacrifice ourselves just to keep the peace. It's important to know how to set healthy boundaries and to maintain them, whether it's with a spouse or with our parents, siblings, friends, colleagues, bosses, etc. When we do that, we create situations where both, we and the other person, can feel safe, productive and thriving. And particularly with our intimate connections or with our strong connections and friendships, we create a situation or an environment where we and they feel safe to be vulnerable, and we can experience true intimacy. 

Setting boundaries makes us feel secure and loved and makes the other person feel secure and loved. If we stand up to them, we are standing up for them. And that is important to learn. It creates respect. If we fail to set or to maintain boundaries, it sends a message that we don't really honor or respect ourselves, so why should they? It gives them permission to walk all over us. And that is a very difficult thing to kind of face, but that is reality. And when problematic behaviors arise, just ask yourself, “How would a healthy male or female handle the situation?” For some reason, just asking this question connects us with our intuitive wisdom and helps us access the power that we need to respond appropriately. And if we really can't answer that question, or kind of think about that, then it's not a problem to reach out to a friend or to reach out to a mentor, or a counselor or our support group, and actually learn how to do without or to answer that question, because that's necessary, and we shouldn't do that on our own. And, you know, again, it's part of a journey, a collective journey. You're not on your own dealing with all of that.

Amina  06:42
Yeah, I also find asking yourself, “What would you tell your brother or your sister or your best friend, if they were in the same situation as you, what would you tell them to do?” And then kind of doing that, because we're typically really good at giving advice, but really hard to follow our own advice, myself included!

Waheed  07:07
Same here! 100%.

Amina  07:10
So and then also focusing on the relationship and not the partner themselves, because wounded people are attracted to wounded people. So, when codependents enter a relationship, they frequently choose partners who look more dysfunctional than they do. This creates a dangerous illusion that one of them is sicker than the other. But it's simply a distortion, because healthy people are just simply not attracted to unhealthy people, and vice versa. So, if there's one obviously wounded person in a relationship, then you're always going to have two wounded people in a relationship, there's just no exception. So, by focusing on the relationship instead of the partner, recovering codependents are able to use their partner to get in touch with their childhood experiences of abandonment, neglect and abuse and smothering, and they can actually use this information to better understand why they have created the kind of relationship they have. And this process enables them to make changes that allows them to get what they want in their intimate relationships. 

So instead of saying, you know, “If my partner would just do this or that”, the recovering codependent actually has to ask, “Why did I need to co-create this relationship in the first place?”, “How does this relationship let me play out these familiar roles and these patterns that I've been living?”, “How does this relationship let me meet these unconscious needs?”, “Why did I invite this person into my life in the first place?” “What do I need to learn from the situation?” and “How could my view of the situation change if I saw it as a gift instead?” When the recovering codependent begins asking these kinds of questions, then he/she can really begin to see their significant other as a partner in healing. And this not only shifts how they view their partner, but also allows them to address childhood issues that prevent them from having a truly intimate relationship with the other person.

Waheed  09:38
Absolutely. Yeah. And then it's very important to know that we should not reinforce undesirable behaviors - what do we mean by that? You know, if you're in an intimate relationship, if you're in a marriage situation, if you're codependent and you reinforce your spouse's undesirable behaviors, then he/she is going to behave and keep on behaving in those undesirable ways. A lot of us codependents, we like the idea of a smooth and problem-free relationship, we don't want to rock the boat, right? If the other person is unhappy or depressed or angry or having a problem, or whatever it is, we tend to kind of want to jump right in and try to fix them, and to make things better. We believe that, when we do that, we are making the problem go away and everything is going to get back to normal. The problem is, every time we respond to a particular behavior, or we pay attention to a particular behavior that we try to eliminate, what happens is that we are reinforcing that very behavior. And that reinforcement increases the likelihood that that behavior is going to occur again. So, instead of reinforcing those behaviors or giving them too much attention, have a conversation about them and actually express your feelings and set boundaries, instead of giving that much attention and trying to fix it when it's not really fixed, if that makes sense. So that is another very important point to actually mention here.

Amina  11:06
Yeah. And then another important point is to choose a suitable partner for your relationship, whether this is a romantic relationship or friendship, whatever it is, enter into the relationship with a healthy agenda to begin with, rather than just an unconscious decision to enter a dysfunctional one. Because codependent have a tendency, due to their own insecurities, to pick these partners who seem like they need a little polishing, they need a little work, kind of these “projects”, and they don't know why a healthy or independent person would want them. So, they kind of settle for someone who needs a little bit of fixing. And they tend to pick these partners who also have troubled childhoods, are sexual abuse survivors, have had a string of bad relationships, depressed, having money problems, overweight or struggling, single moms, whatever it is, they look for these “projects” to fix. And then they can go to work operating from this ‘covert contract’, like this unconscious contract, these unconscious strings attached of fixing and caretaking and pleasing these people, all with the hope that they will turn out to be a polished gem, so that you can say “Oh, look at what I've done, look at how I've helped this person!” 

Unfortunately, this strategy rarely works. When recovering codependents create these relationships with people who don't need fixing, they improve their odds of finding love that they actually want and need, and it doesn't mean that you have to go out and search for that “perfect partner”, just one who is already taking responsibility for their own life that is independent and doesn't need you and doesn't need your fixing or your problem solving. You can pick the traits that you want, because it might differ a little bit from person or person, but you can kind of come up with a list of the general things that you should be looking for in a partner or friend, and these can be happiness, intelligence, financial responsibility, being committed to personal growth, etc. You know, I used to tell people that I don't care so much about finances and stuff like that, but you just have to be going somewhere in life, like wanting to change yourself and change the world to be a better place, just have something. And stop saying that people are out of your league or that this person is too good for you. Chances are, you are in their league and you are equals, and that person is good enough for you, just like you are good enough for them. 

Waheed  14:09
Amen! Hands down! Absolutely. And then again, you know, as we've been talking about over the past couple of episodes, codependents have a strong tendency to try to do everything right and to be perfectionists. And again, you know, there are no perfect people, no perfect relationships, we are not perfect, right? If we look for the particular traits that Amina was actually talking about, you know, the lists and stuff that we make to try and think about what kinds of friends or spouses or people in our support group we want to have, if we try to consciously look for these traits in those people, we can actually save ourselves a lot of grief, and we improve our chances of actually finding what we are looking for, instead of walking in with unconscious dysfunctional patterns of thinking or agendas or whatever. 

And actually, Ross Rosenberg talks about something called “Relationship Math”, and that is very interesting. He says that the codependent relationship formula is “1/2 + 1/2 = 1”. What does he mean by that? It's like a two-half or emotionally unhealthy and underdeveloped relationship partners, so they make two halves of a relationship. They make this whole or complete dysfunctional relationship. Although the initial feeling in this relationship is often euphoric and emotionally explosive, this “soulmate experience” eventually devolves into two people that are angry and resentful “cellmates”. So he talks about the “soulmates becoming cellmates”. So this is “1/2 + 1/2 = 1”, two halves that are dysfunctional give you a whole dysfunctional relationship. 

Whereas when people recover from codependency, or when they try to have an equal balanced relationship, it's actually “1 + 1 = 2”, because you have to whole or two emotionally healthy individuals who make up a complete relationship. And, in this equation, two whole individuals relate to each other as independent adults. And this is called an interdependent relationship. And it works because of this “unique mixture of cooperation and autonomy, they give each other space to be independent, but then they also cooperate to make this relationship work. They neither need nor rely on the other person to feel whole, complete, and happy. They feel worthy, happy and complete just the way they are, but that relationship helps them cooperate and build each other up. They come to this relationship as psychologically healthy people seeking an independent but shared love experience”, as he says.

17:03
The question that comes up is, after we've spoken about this from a relationship lens, “What if you are unsure whether you want to stay in that particular relationship or leave altogether?” A very good exercise to do is what is known as a cost-benefit analysis. You just simply bring a piece of paper, you divide it in half, and you make two lists. You complete it on your own, and then you may process it with a therapist or a friend or a mentor or someone from your support system. You make a list on that paper and you see what are the costs and what are the benefits. In other words, what are the advantages and disadvantages of me staying in that relationship or leaving. It might seem redundant to you, because you might actually be saying, “Well, I know all of these points in my head!” But, you know, trust us, writing them down is a different experience, you might come up with so many different things as you write them down. You will elicit different answers and responses. 

For example, what are the costs/benefits of not changing or staying in that relationship? Maybe you might say, “I will never be respected if I stay, because the other person is not respecting me.” What about the costs/benefits of changing? You might say something like, “One day, I will be respected and be able to feel self-love, and eventually enter into a whole relationship during my recovery journey.” So, the list helps you extract a lot of emotions, a lot of negativity and pessimism, all of these cognitive distortions that go in our heads, the voices from the past. On our journey, it's very important, in our support groups, therapy and learning everything that we've been talking about, to kind of address these cognitive distortions. And we've talked about these in the complex trauma series of episodes, so if you would like to revisit those, just to kind of freshen up your memory, those are necessary. And to kind of like a look at how our thinking is restrictive and negative in so many aspects, and to kind of address that. Maybe just see to what extent we are engaging in denial patterns, and maybe address that with our support system or therapist, this is important.

Amina  19:08
Yeah, I find it actually as an adult, because I've done this cost-benefit analysis throughout my life, also kind of unconsciously too, but you start looking at your friends and your relationships, and you just sort of mentally start making a pros and cons, list advantages and disadvantages of hanging out with each person. And so, I find, as an adult, I actually have very few close friends that I would consider very good friends, and then I have many acquaintances, people I see every now and then. And I think it's because you're weighing the advantages and disadvantages of hanging out with these people. So the friends, the very good friends that I have, are the ones with whom I have a mutual and equally giving relationship, we're both equally there for each other, and we're both benefiting from each other. There's a lot of equality and love, and it's very healthy. And I remember doing this also during my divorce, and I actually did write our pros and cons list – the pros were very short, and that's when you start to realize, “Do I stay in this or not? What am I actually getting from this relationship?” And you look at the pros, and you think - I remember one of the pros being that I won't be alone, and you start to realize, “Well, that's a lame pro, because I can actually get that pro satisfied from somewhere else. I don't have to be alone, but I also don't have to be with this person, I can be hanging out with friends, or I can be in a new relationship, whatever it is, but this pro, or this advantage, does not have to be satisfied by just this person.” And so, obviously, the list of disadvantages was way longer, and it's like, “Okay, I get to make that choice, are the advantages worth all those lists of disadvantages?” And if it's worth it to me, then I make that choice, and I choose it, but I don't get to blame the other person for my unhappy life, because I chose it, you know, take that ownership. And so, you can start doing this just on a daily basis with the people around you. And you get to choose what you do that day. So, if you want to hang out with that person, then you hang out with that person, but you make that choice and don't blame the other person, if you didn't really want to hang out with them.

Waheed  21:58
Absolutely, 100%. And then, another question would be “What if I am in a relationship with an abusive person, like this relationship is toxic, and there's a lot of abuse going on?” Whether that's emotional, mental, physical, or even, you know, an extreme case of sexual abuse - we will talk more about boundaries and how to escape a toxic relationship in the next episode. But for now, it's important to mention that, if you are or if you were in a relationship with someone who is classified as a “pathological narcissist”, and here we're talking about people who have narcissistic tendencies, whether they may have borderline personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, or others who pull people into arguments just for the sake of controlling them, manipulating them, gas lighting them, and so on and so forth. If that is the case, once you set boundaries, the other person is going to react, all of these issues are going to come up to the surface. So it's very, very important for you to proactively establish your support system, maybe attend 12-step meetings, have a sponsor, seek help, seek therapy in the process, any measure, any support network that you can find to help you through this, because it is very difficult to do this alone. And you don't have to do that anyway. 

And, anyway, as a codependent who is recovering from a toxic or abusive relationship, there is this compulsion to connect with the “pathological narcissist”, because we engage in a lot of self-doubt, we second guess ourselves. Again, we talked about the negative and the distorted thinking, and all of these thoughts and the shame that comes in, and the denial, and then we have the cravings, on the other side, because we're too afraid of being lonely, and we just need to latch on to the other person. There might be anxiety, depression, maybe addictions going on at the same time. So it's very important to address all of these things. It's important to deal with that pathological loneliness that we talked about. So everything that we've spoken about in the previous episode, when it comes to our individual healing, and everything we've been talking about, like when it comes to complex trauma and healing from complex trauma, all of this applies here. 

In addition to all of that, it's important to realize that, as you heal and as you recover, a lot of people are going to leave your life. And this is a sad reality, but it is true. You will lose people as you heal, particularly if those people - whether they are friends, colleagues, relatives, or whoever is in your life - operated on the basis of a toxic relationship, and they had expectations from you, they were taking advantage of you, or maybe you were too codependent to realize that. Then when you heal and you recover, and you've set up boundaries, you will end up losing some people in your life. That may or may not happen, but that is something to kind of take into account. So, as a result, it's important to kind of deal with this idea of being isolated, so that you don't have to be isolated, because if you're proactive about setting your support network and support system, then it doesn't have to reach a point where you are completely alone, right?

Amina  25:19
Yeah, and coming out of these abusive relationships is very difficult. So, to give yourself that time and that space, because I think you always hear people say, “Oh, why didn't you just leave?”, “Just get over it!” and “What's wrong with you?” and all of these comments that are just not helpful at all, because people don't actually know what it's like to be in those types of relationships, unless they have been in them themselves. And even then, they’re not able to understand completely all the intricacies of your specific relationship. So just understand that it's very difficult. And it won't be easy, especially because that fear of being alone and being abandoned comes up a lot. Or they'll feel like, if they leave, sometimes there's an actual physical threat, they'll feel like their spouse or their friend might come after them and hurt them even more. So that can be a very real threat. A lot of times, I find that people don't even realize that they are being manipulated or being abused, and I see this a lot where people will say, “I had no idea that it was this bad”, until they had kind of a moment where they woke up. Normally, other people start to notice something is wrong, and they inform the person, but even then, it takes a long time for the person to really realize, it just kind of opens the door. And I see this a lot too in abusive relationships, that they feel stuck, the person literally feels stuck in that friendship or relationship and always says, “I don't know what to do.” And I see these friendships or those relationships dissolve, at some point, when one person is ready to leave and actually makes that decision. 

I can't say from studies or anything like that, this is just a personal experience in the people that I've talked to, but it seems like basically 100% of the time, the person that finally leaves after months or years, they say, “Yes, I'm happy that I left, and I wish that I had done it sooner.” So I can't say, obviously, that's not some study or anything, that's just purely from an anecdotal experience. Even if it takes a long time for the person to get there, but they always look back and say, “Man, what was I doing? Why didn't I leave earlier?” So I will never give somebody advice and say, “Oh, you just need to leave” and all that, because, no, people don't know what is exactly going on in a relationship. But I can just say that you're not alone when it comes to abusive relationships, if you're in one, or if you know somebody that's in one, there are hundreds and thousands of people that are in abusive relationships, and there will be hundreds and thousands of more, this is not going to end now. And it's never quick to leave these types of relationships, it takes a lot of heartache and just going back and forth. It feels like your hearts just being ripped out, and it feels like you're dying. And the problem is, so much of the time has been focused on what the abuser wants and what the abuser needs. 

And so it's just so hard to leave that, because you feel like the person needs you, you feel like the abuser actually needs you. And so, you want to run back and save them and rescue them when really, they don't need you and they're going to move on and probably repeat the cycle, unless they get help themselves. But so don't also don't feel bad if you are running back to them. You know, I've seen people even after they divorce, out of an abusive relationship, they will get remarried to the abuser, even a couple years down the road. And then they get divorced again, so there's just all kinds of situations, and you don't have to feel any type of shame for any of this, it's normal. But you get to choose what you want to do, and that is completely your choice. And you own that choice. When you're running back to the person that you're with/the abuser, it's because you're feeling not good enough, it's coming from an insecurity in yourself that you feel like they need you, but you feel like you need them for that validation. But you don't. You're good enough. You're good enough because you exist, you're good enough because you wake up and you took a breath that day, that makes you good enough. It does not matter who you have by your side, you are good enough because you are you.

Waheed  30:15
Amen! Absolutely. As you were reflecting on this and saying everything that you were talking about in terms of escaping an abusive relationship, it just goes back to all of the trauma bonding that we talked about, the childhood attachments, which reflect themselves in adult attachment styles. And going back to the trauma bonding that we've been talking about, it just makes sense that all of these manifest themselves. So it's very important to seek help, do the necessary work at your own pace, and know that you are worthy and loved and important, inshaAllah. 

31:13
Now, we will be talking about how to heal in terms of reclaiming our masculinity, for men in particular, as we heal from codependency, whether we struggle with same-sex attractions or not, this applies to all men in general, right? It's very important, as we've been always saying, for men to connect with other healthy men. Connecting with men is essential to reclaim our masculinity. And it takes a conscious effort to build relationships with men; this process begins with a commitment to actually develop male friendships. We need to make the time and take risks, and, again, be vulnerable. It's going to take time to talk with a neighbor, or call up a friend, or go to a game, meet up with friends and watch it together, or like go to the gym, or just do a group activity or whatever it is. Since many of us who struggle with codependency are so enmeshed maybe with our spouses or our families or work even, it means taking time away from these things. So, connecting with men involves doing “guy things” with guys, feeling like “I'm one of the guys.” There is no right way to do this, but it can involve like maybe joining a team, or going to a sporting event, or joining a prayer group, a discussion group, a halaqa (spiritual/religious circle) the mosque, doing volunteer work, going fishing maybe, doing a hobby together, swimming, going for a run, or just hanging out and chilling, watching a movie, whatever it is. Friendships with men have the potential for tremendous depth and intimacy when there is no sexual agenda, and this is the case of men who experience same-sex attractions. 

And, in addition to that, when we talked about having a “monogamous bond” with the mother figure in our childhood, we reflected upon this in the very first episode of codependency - having these healthy relationships with men helps us kind of like break that “monogamous bond” that a lot of the little boys had during their childhoods with their mothers in particular. So, as a practical exercise, list the names of three men in your life whom you would like to get to know better, that might be a relative, or a friend or a colleague, whoever you would like to get to know better and potentially build a healthy relationship with. And next to each man's name, list a possible activity that you could do together, and then write down a date and make a commitment to contact that person on that date. And then make that happen, if possible.

Amina  33:54
Yeah, and then also just getting stronger. And this doesn't have to be specifically for men either, it can be also for women. After I went through my overeating phase during my divorce, I had to correct that. Working out more and working out heavy, and it just gives you more self-confidence and you feel better. When you look better, you feel better. I mean, it's just overall a really good thing. But for men, specifically, you know, masculinity denotes strength and power. And so, because of their conditioning, codependent men tend to fear these traits. And, as a result, they often become emotionally or physically soft, and some even take pride in their softness, because it puts them apart from other men, more masculine men. Embracing your masculinity actually means embracing your own body and your power and spaciousness. In order to do this, recovering codependent men really just have to stop putting junk into their bodies and train them to respond to the physical demands of being a male, you know, just eating better and, and working out, eliminating unhealthy substances or behaviors, drinking lots of water, playing, relaxing, just getting enough rest in general. So whatever that entails for you, and this goes for women too, find something that you like to do. For me, it's working out, I really like to lift. And I love running - okay, I didn't always love running, I had to train myself to love running. So some of these things might feel a little bit, you know, weird in the beginning, but because of the endorphins that are released when you're exercising, your body will learn to love it, because it actually loves these endorphins being released. And then it actually feels really weird if I don't work out for a day or don't run that day. 

So an exercise that you can do is you can identify three ways in which you neglect your body. So whatever those three ways are, then you do something to correct those ways. So, one of the things could be, “I eat too much sugar”, so the solution would be to limit your sugar or to cut it out completely, or chips, whatever it is. And then also seek out healthy role models. So visualize what you think a healthy man or a healthy woman would look like, and think of what those traits they would have are. And so, with that picture in mind, you can go out and look for those men or women with those kinds of qualities, and they could be in your religious communities or community functions, whatever it is, or even if it's not in real life, it could be simply on the TV or movies. And then by observing how these people live their lives and interact with the world, you, as a man or a woman, can begin assimilating into this healthier model of manhood or womanhood.

Waheed  37:24
Exactly. Yeah. And then, particularly for a lot of codependent men/men with same-sex attractions, it's very, very important to reexamine our relationship with our fathers. As we've been talking about during the podcast, a lot of men who struggle with codependency or same-sex attractions, a lot of us did not have a close relationship with our fathers in childhood. Either the father was passive or unavailable, or absent, or maybe abusive, or, in general, may have had some negative traits that kind of pushed us away. So, when we talk about reclaiming our masculinity, it involves us also examining that relationship with our fathers and kind of like taking a look at that relationship through our adult eyes, as opposed to our little boy's eyes. It means seeing dad through the adult me, through the eyes of the adult me, as they really are. It means taking them out of the gutter that I placed them in, in my mind, or off of that pedestal that I put them on, and just seeing them as they really are. It may require that I hold them accountable by expressing my feelings to them - even if I'm angry, just to kind of like have a conversation where I just express my feelings and tell them how I feel. That is essential, even if our fathers had passed away, right? It's very important to actually reflect on that. And if our fathers are still available, and we can have that contact with them, that conversation, we can do that. Sometimes that is not an easy thing, sometimes it's even impossible. And it's not necessary that the father has to be there in order to do this kind of work. What is essential is that men who are on their recovery journey kind of embrace that “male heritage” that they and their fathers share. The goal is to kind of find a way to view our fathers more accurately, as humans, as wounded individuals, as people struggling, imperfect creatures, just like all of us, right? 

Men with SSA or codependency who are recovering and healing can begin to accept our fathers for who they were and for who they are. And this shift is essential if we are going to view ourselves more accurately, to accept ourselves for who we are, and to reclaim our masculinity. So how do we do that?  A practical exercise: Create list. Bring a piece of paper, or on your laptop. On the left side of the paper, list a number of the characteristics of your father, particularly negative characteristics, and on the opposite side of the paper, the right side of the paper, write the opposite characteristics. And indicate on the spectrum between the two of those where you see yourself. So you can say like, “My father is super angry”, and you can say, “He's super peaceful” on the other side. So where are you in terms of that spectrum? And then that applies to all the characteristics that you list. When we do this exercise, we are often surprised at what we discover about our fathers and about ourselves. We often see how we have made our fathers into a caricature, or a distortion of who they really are. Sometimes, we may even realize that the men that we have become might have been based on our reaction to how we saw our fathers, and, therefore, we too have become caricatures, because we have based our reality on some sort of a distortion. Because, again, remember, “The opposite of crazy is still crazy”, as Robert Glover says in his book, No More Mr. Nice Guy. We realize that if our lives are a reaction to dad, then dad is still in control. No matter how much we tried to push him away, or be different from him, in our minds, he is still in control, because our life is revolving around being different from him. We might discover that we can be different from dad without having to be the exact opposite to him. We often come to realize that we have more traits in common with our fathers than we had previously realized or wanted to accept. And this is just a simple exercise that you can do. And then try to reconnect with your father if that is possible. And we have spoken about this previously in the podcast as well.

Amina  41:51
So you're passing the benefits of masculinity and femininity on to the next generation. Recovering codependent men, specifically, can help boys find a saner model of what it means to be male in our culture. And this also goes for women as well. Because there are only certain things that boys can only learn from men, and then there are certain things that girls can only learn from men and from women as well. And so, as codependent men or men with SSA embrace their masculinity, they can teach their sons what it means to be male. And this includes things like how to handle their aggression or their libido, how to relate to women, how to bond with a man, and perhaps, most importantly, how to embrace their own masculinity. Men can teach these lessons to their boys, both, by example and by interaction with young boys. So, fathers need to take their sons hunting and fishing, work on cars with them, take them to work, coach their teams, take them to games, work out with them, let them tag along to things when they go out with the other guys. All of these activities will help boys move successfully into the male world. And this process is not just limited to the man's biological sons, it can be with other boys, other family members or boys that they mentor. 

Codependents can also get involved with young relatives or sport teams, there's some Big Brother, Little Brother groups and mentorship programs. And recovering codependent men or men with SSA can also show their daughters what a real man looks like, and what kind of characteristics a man should have. And girls benefit by seeing their father set boundaries and ask for what they want in clear in direct ways, working hard, having male friends and making their own needs a priority instead of everybody else's. And, as with little boys, girls can learn what it means to be male, both by watching their fathers and by interacting with them. So, this modeling will have a positive influence on boys and girls choosing their future partners later on in life.

Waheed  44:46
And now we will talk about how to reclaim our power in terms of our purpose, our work, our life and finding our passion. Many of us are intelligent and competent individuals, right? Whether we struggle of codependency or SSA, or both, or other things. Most of us are at least moderately successful at what we do, but then the majority of us have not lived up to our full abilities or our full potential, we have not really created the kind of life that we really desire. And we actually feel that on a visceral level, right? We spend so much time seeking approval, as codependents, that we hide our flaws, we tend to play it safe, we do the opposite of what works. It makes sense that we would typically fall short of being all that we can be. A lot of intelligent and talented people have wasted their lives, because they were too codependent and too afraid of actually stepping outside their comfort zone, reaching out and fulfilling their true potential. So, it is very important to realize that, and it's never too late to actually have the life that you want, and achieve the purpose that you need, regardless of your circumstances, to the best of your abilities. So how do we do that? What do you think Amina?

Amina  46:09
I think one way is - we've talked about this a little bit before - facing your fears. So really stepping out of your comfort zone. So choosing something in your life or your career, whatever it is, just think about something that you're kind of afraid of doing. It could be that you're afraid of asking for a raise, or being asked to switch to a different team in your company, whatever it is, and then doing it. You can always ask for a friend's help to hold you accountable. I find this for myself a lot, if I tell myself that I'm going to do something, and it's just going to become one more project that it goes unfinished or unstarted - I don't even know if that's a word – But if I tell a friend about it, and I say, “Hey, I want to do this, I want to start this”, they will hold me accountable. And I don't even have to tell them like, “Oh check on me in one week!” No, they just get really jazzed up about the idea that I have, in general, and they will just naturally check up on me about it, and that will make me start the project or finish it. So, whatever it is, going back to school, starting your own business, confronting a situation where you feel conflicted, confronting somebody… Yeah, just make a goal, set a date that you're going to do it by, and then do it.

Waheed  47:41
Amen. Just do it. Like that Nike logo! 

Amina  47:48
Nike! We're sponsored by Nike. JK, JK.

Waheed  47:55
No we’re not! So other than facing your fears, chart your own path, right? A lot of us do not consciously take responsibility for creating the kind of life that we want. A lot of us just accept where we are, and we act as if we have little power in shaping this exciting, productive and fulfilling life that we hope to achieve. It starts with visualizing things: Try and imagine creating a life where you do what you love, and you actually get paid for it. Most of us have difficulty with this concept. A lot of us have this excuse of “Not everybody can be lucky like you, and have a job that they really love, and get paid well for it too!”, “All of these life coaches are full of crap, you know, they're making money, meanwhile, we're stuck in this!” But it's not about luck. Earning a title, getting a decent job, and all of that involves a conscious decision, it involves persistence, it involves hard work, making conscious decisions to actually face our fears and not settle for mediocrity, and to actually make our own rules in the process, and persevere, and seek help in the process, and have tawakkul (trusting in God’s plan/relying on Him) and pray for things. And that's how things get achieved. 

So, it's important to realize that the only thing that is stopping you from having the kind of life that you really want is YOU, right? “I am the person who is standing in the way of my own personal growth”, full stop. It is time to start actually charting our own path and making our own rules and making our dreams a reality. What do we really want from life, and what prevents us from making it happen? So, again, an exercise: Just write down three things that you want to make happen in your life, whether that's in your family life, in your personal life, in your career, whatever it is, and then write a particular personal affirmation that will take you where you want to go. And then post that on a sheet of paper where you could actually see it, maybe on your desk, on the fridge, on your mirror, a place where you can actually see that visible, and you can see it multiple times per day. And then among your safe persons or in your support group, just share your dreams and affirmations with them. And, by the way, all of these exercises that we've been talking about, they have been mentioned, written and detailed in Robert Glover's book, No More Mr. Nice Guy. So, make sure to read that book, because it's very important.

Amina  50:19
For women too!  

Waheed  50:20
For women too! Yeah. 

Amina  50:24
And so, at this point, when you start doing this exercise, once you write down the things that you want to do, you start to hit walls, because, naturally, a codependent is going to start immediately planning everything out, and they're going to want to do everything right and perfectly. And then, at some point, you're going to start thinking, “Shoot, this is too much, what if I fail, there's too many parts of this?” And at that point, you just have to let go of all of that. Nothing has to be perfect, you just have to let everything just be how it's going to be, and just recognize that, however it's going to end, that is going to be good enough just for you. The point is, embrace your passion and create something that satisfies you and fulfills you. 

So, for example, I want to start a nonprofit organization. So, as soon as I said that - I said it maybe a month or two ago or something - then I started thinking, “Oh!”, and then I really started looking at what is the process to start one. And then there's all these things that I have to do. And then, I immediately started thinking, “Oh, no, what if I can't do those things?” and then I have come to full stop and realized, you know, I've just haven't gotten anywhere in starting this nonprofit organization. It's all based off of fears that, “Oh, I can't do any of these things”, when really, I just have to take each task one by one and just start from somewhere. And I also have to ask myself, you know, “Would I start this if I already knew it was going to be a success?” Like, what if I could see in the future, and I could see, yes, here's my nonprofit organization, and it's helping X, Y and Z, helping this number of people, would I start it? Of course I would. If I knew it was going to be a success, I would start it. So, going into it like that, whatever the activity or the thing is for you, going into it already believing it is going to work out in your favor. So, if it's to ask for a promotion at your job, already go into it thinking and have the price, say “Yes, I’m going to ask him for a 10% raise, and I know for certain that my employer is going to give me a 10% raise”, and just coming into it with that mindset is already going to create that world for you. So, you're going to go in with the mindset that the employer is going to give you that 10% raise, and you're going to live in that life that “Yes, I got a 10% raise.” And so, just looking at it from that mindset, it already boosts your motivation surrounding it, and it doesn't become such a scary thing, because you're already living it from the future almost.

Waheed  53:08
Absolutely. Beautifully said, 100% agreed. 

Amina  53:14
Yeah. And I always tell people to step out of their comfort zone, because only ordinary things happen in the comfort zone. When you think about your comfort zone, you already know exactly what that's like, because that is your comfort zone. It’s everything you're familiar with. But if you want to experience extraordinary things, you have to step out of your comfort zone, because that (i.e. outside your comfort zone) is where extraordinary things happen. And you have no idea what that can look like in your life.  

Waheed  53:44
Amen. And as we’re trying to say, chart your own life, imagine what kind of life you want to have, face your fears, let go of trying to do things perfectly, and then it follows that you can't do this alone. Again, this is a very common theme that we've been talking about over and over. You need people in your life to help you. Allah did not create us as individuals just to live by ourselves, He created us in communities and societies, because there is a reason for that. We need to thrive on connections. A lot of us as codependents have failed to live up to our potential, because we believe that we have to do everything on our own. And that is not going to work. And I had to learn that the hard way! 

So the question is, do you believe your needs are important? Yes. Do you believe that other people want to help you to meet your needs? You have to answer that question. Do you believe that other people are available to actually help you, and they want to help you meet those needs? The answer is “Yes”. But you have to actually believe that. And, actually, let's do this exercise, again, get a sheet of paper and write down the list of people who can help you in your life right now. Whether they are friends or family members, professionals like teachers, doctors, lawyers, therapists, any connections that you have on your journey of healing and recovery, or your professional journey, or whatever you imagine your life to be, the different areas of your life. Remember the bio-psycho-social-spiritual model, the fact that you are building your body, your mind, your heart, your spirit and your social connections. Look at all of these areas and see who are the people in your life who could actually help you in these different ways? 

And when you make that list, answer these questions: What kind of people do you still need to help you? How can you make use of those people's help in your life, whether they exist right now, or you want to potentially have those people in your life? And how do you prevent those people from helping you? Because a lot of times those people want to help us, or they don't know that we need help, and if they knew, they would have wanted to help us, but we are the ones who are preventing them from helping us, either because we’re pushing them away, or because we're not even asking, to begin with. So, start looking for opportunities to actually ask those people for help. I can guarantee you that a lot of people in our lives are really looking forward to helping us, particularly if we, as codependents, have always been there for other people, trying to help them right and left. People are really there willing to help us in so many ways. So, build your networks and build connections. And I know that that is scary, and it takes time and effort, but it is necessary, right? And there is no shame in asking people for help when you need it. And, remember that affirmation, “I am worthy, I am loved.” And then you can also make other affirmations like, “This person wants to help me get my needs met, I'm going to allow them to do that.” So, let's learn to ask people for help when we need that, and that is important.

Amina  56:59
So, typically, the things that are going to prevent you from doing what you want to do are your own self-sabotaging behaviors. So, as we've mentioned previously, codependents tend to find numerous, creative ways to sabotage their successes in life. They waste time, procrastinate, start things but don't finish them, spend too much time fixing other people's problems, distract themselves with other tasks, create chaos, and make tons of excuses. I definitely do this a lot, I procrastinate nonstop, I was the one that wrote my thesis, you know, in 72 hours when I had two years to write it. 

Waheed  57:39
Darn! Okay… 

Amina  57:43
Waheed asked me to start notes for this podcast like seven months ago, and I did it all in, you know, 24 hours. So, I'm the ultimate procrastinator probably, I'm the only one that's standing in front of my own successes. At some point, we just have to make a conscious decision to stop sabotaging ourselves. This is a crucial aspect in recovery, in order to start getting what we want in life and work, and whatever it is, we have to make the conscious decision to get out of our own way. 

So, to eliminate these self-sabotaging behaviors, one way of doing this is by changing the way we think about change in general. This begins when we become aware of why we unconsciously create so many barriers that keep us feeling stuck, whatever the typical excuses we make are: It’s too costly, we're paying a mortgage, we don't have the training to do what it is, lacking the college degree or lacking the required training, or being in debt, having children, whatever it is… We're always really good at making excuses to not get what we want in life. And the thing is, those are just excuses. So in the end, you can look at the goal that you want to have in life, and you can either be at that goal - if you say, “I want to do this in six months”, in six months, there's going to be two outcomes, there's only two outcomes: you're going to either have achieved your goal or be somewhere near it/on the path to it, or you're just going to have a thousand excuses, a thousand reasons of why you didn't make it to that goal. So, which person will you be in six months? Will you have achieved your goal, or just have a bunch of excuses why you didn't? 

So I would like to be the person that has achieved that goal in six months. So, take these small steps. Set up a timeline for whatever the goal is, and then identify how you sabotage yourself at each step of the way. And once you've identified these patterns, determine what you have to do differently to get what you really want. So yeah, here's some helpful points if you get derailed: Just focus, do what you can now. Accept that it's good enough, it doesn't have to be perfect. Finish what you start, don't start any new projects until the old ones are completely finished. I always do this, I'm always starting new things...

Waheed  1:00:40
Yup, same… Exactly! 

Amina  1:00:42
Don't make any more excuses. You know what? I also think excuses are just a way to say… Just call an excuse for what it is, say that “I do not care enough about this to make it a priority.” So, if you're constantly making excuses, or you're always saying, “Oh, I'm too busy to do this.” No, just call it for what it is, and say, “I'm saying that this is not a priority for me right now, and that is why I'm not doing it.” 

Waheed  1:01:11
Right, which is realistic.

Amina  1:01:14
Yeah, so then you can choose a goal that you actually are passionate about, and that you will want to make it a priority in your life. And detach yourself from other people's problems, and share your strategy, share your goal with a safe person. And people normally will get really excited about what you're doing. And like Waheed said, they'll actually want to help you in whatever you're doing. So, check in with them on a regular basis to monitor how you're doing. 

Waheed  1:01:47
Absolutely. Yep. And then the last point would be to just see the world realistically. And, again, we've spoken about this before, a lot of our early childhood experiences have given us this idea that we are ruled by this “deprivation thinking”. We may have believed that there is only so much that goes around, and if someone already has a lot, then there is less for me. And so, we engage in this comparison mentality, “That person is smarter than me, he has more than me, he is much better looking”, and bla bla bla. And there is scarcity thinking, jealousy, envy, feeling worse about ourselves, because we're always comparing to other people. We have difficulty comprehending that we live in an abundant, ever expanding universe. And this is a very important theme in our Deen, that rizq (sustenance) comes from Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala, He has dictated everything, everything that is part of our sustenance has been dictated by Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala, and all we have to do is actually strive to achieve our potential in God-conscious ways, right? But, unfortunately, we hang on too tightly to what we have got, because we are so afraid that there won't be more when it is gone. And the irony is that, when we hold on too tightly to something, we become too attached to it, it is going to leave us eventually, because it becomes a trial in and of itself. And anything that we're too attached to, other than Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala, is going to eventually leave us, and it's going to leave us in a state of abandonment. 

And then we kind of believe that we have to control and manipulate in order to ensure that what little is out there is not going to go away. And we try to play it safe, we don't trust that our needs will always be abundantly met, because of our early childhood conditioning. But, subhan Allah, once you put everything in a proper perspective, and when we think about Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala taking care of us, He has given us more than we need, and we develop that sense of ridha (contentment) and acceptance and surrender to Allah, and get to a point where we've fully internalized this idea, where we believe that Allah is taking care of us, and He's giving us what we need, and all of this is in His Hands. It just gives us proper perspective, you know, it just puts things in proper perspective. 

When we come to see the world as a place of abundance, we come to realize that there's plenty for everyone. And everything that we need is flowing by us. All we have to do is to actually get out of our own small thinking, our own brains, and just let things come our own way. Rizq, as I said, has been preordained by Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala for each and every one of us. And, you know, if other people are living full and they are successful, and they're leading abundant lives, then why not us as well? What one man or woman can do, another man or woman can do. Unfortunately, the world cannot give us something that we are not ready to receive. And this deprivation, scarcity thinking and comparison, all of that keeps us holding tightly to what we already have. We are not in a receptive mode to receive more things in life. So, anyway, whenever you find yourself in that moment, or that kind of thinking, and comparing yourself to other people, not being centered and not consciously aware of yourself and your values and your goals in life, just take a couple of deep breaths, clear your mind and try to picture yourself living in an abundant world, and try to find that inner center. And when you picture that abundant world, where you are accomplishing your dreams and thriving, imagine everything you have ever desired in your life, whether it is something that you wanted to have, or a specific position that you wanted to have, a degree, family, etc. The success, the peace of mind, the joy, the love, the friends that you wanted to have, everything… Just visualize yourself living that life surrounded by this abundance, and make a prayer. And repeat that visualization several times a day, or several times per week until it begins to feel real for you. And when you visualize it, and you truly want that to happen, pray that it happens. Prayer is a beautiful connection and a wonderful resource, and Allah answers our prayers. Just open your arms, open your heart, open your mind, and get out of the way, and let it happen, and it will happen, inshaAllah. 

1:06:35
In the last part of this episode, we're going to be talking about healing emotional dependency, in particular. And, as you guys remember, we've addressed the origins of emotional dependency and its characteristics in a previous episode. And now we're going to be talking about how to heal from emotional dependency. A lot of the previous pieces of advice that we've given, in this episode and the previous episode, as well as the episode on healing complex trauma, a lot of that applies here. But there are a couple of points that we would like to mention as well.

Amina  1:07:02
So the first step to healing emotional dependency is to become willing to challenge or release beliefs, patterns or ways of being that keep you stuck. So, you have to really believe in the changes and beliefs that you're going to alter, because if you don't, then your old beliefs and behaviors are going to return, you're going to continue doing those. So, things like the black-or-white thinking, the absolute thinking, all-or-none. So “He/she is the only person for me”, when, in reality, it's obviously not true, there's now 7-8 billion people in the world, there's somebody out there for you. Or “This is the only way for me to be happy”, no, it's not. There's plenty of other things that you could be doing that would make you happy.

Waheed  1:08:00
Exactly, yeah. 

Amina  1:08:03
The emotional addiction and the drama, needing that high from the attention and the stress - just focus on inner peace instead. And you don't have to always be on that roller coaster. When you start seeing yourself craving that high or wanting to stir things up, just remember that this is okay. The low is okay. Escaping by wanting others to take care of them and being in charge of them feeling well, realize that you're the only one that can bring that for yourself. So, you don't have to take care of others for yourself to feel well, you can just feel well on your own. Open up possibilities and realize that there are many different people that can help you, and you can help others as well. 

Waheed  1:08:56
Absolutely. And then in addition to changing these narratives, it's very important to set emotional boundaries - we'll be talking about boundaries in detail next episode. But to experience our emotions separately from the other person's emotions, particularly with emotional dependency, we talked about the idea that one person latches on to the other person, and they make them their own world, everything revolves around them, and there's a fear of abandonment and all of that. Realize that their emotions are different from yours, you are two independent entities, right? Learn to give time and space to your emotions, and try to balance them with logic and reason. Don't let your emotions run your life. Again, as Amina was saying, like there's an element of emotional addiction and drama and being addicted to that high of adrenaline and dopamine and just drama and stress all the time. Don't let that run your life, because it's so stressful and so draining, and it's not going to be productive at the end of the day, and it's very dysfunctional. So it's very important to set emotional boundaries. And, again, we'll revisit that in our next episode in detail, so make sure to check that out. 

And then, another beautiful piece of advice is to learn to be your own best friend, kind of like embrace your inner child. And we talked about this in detail in episode 47. Learn to take care of yourself, and sometimes challenge this fear of being alone. We need to be alone sometimes and learn more about ourselves. And you might discover that your own company can be very enjoyable. And in this alone time, when you are alone, you can also experience this alone time with Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala, when you pray, or even just talk to Him the way you would talk to a loved one, you know. And, in the process, you can try to practice affirming yourself, accepting yourself, so that you are not 100% dependent on the affirmation of others and their validation and their attention all the time. And when you are alone, you can also monitor and watch yourself talk and all of these narratives that go on in your mind. And to practice self-care and self-compassion, where you treat yourself with kindness and love. And, again, self-compassion, the gist of it is: Treat yourself the way that you treat someone you love and care about, and speak to yourself the way that you would speak to someone that you love and care about.

Amina  1:11:19
Yeah, definitely. And another thing you can do is you can branch out and foster new friendships. You can choose a number, but you could say, “I'm going to foster new friendships with at least five other people”, and just go on that journey and learn to enjoy the richness of the different kinds of friendships with different people. So, Waheed had talked, in episode 27, about the different kinds of friendships and relationships, like same-gender SSA relationships and same-gender OSA relationships, and how each of those have their own values and their inherent limitations. So, like with OSA friends, they're typically safer in the sexual nature, because it comes with inherent boundaries built in, this friendship will never turn into a sexual relationship, if the friend has only OSA. And the OSA individual can help the person with SSA work through this ambivalence toward the OSA world, and the OSA person can model how men and women typically relate to each other in a healthy manner. And then if the SSA person becomes emotionally dependent, it's usually safe to continue that friendship anyway. And then the SSA person can learn from that emotional dependency and work through the underlying issues of why that emotional dependency is occurring. The OSA person can continue to nurture the relationship in healthy ways, teaching the SSA person how to have a healthy relationship, and the OSA person can typically set boundaries and teach the SSA person how to set boundaries as well in the relationship. 

And then, people with SSA, they have things to teach people with OSA, and vice versa. So like, SSA women can teach OSA women how to be more assertive and what they want, or just anything really. And you have SSA men who can teach OSA men how to be more in touch with emotions, and to be more vulnerable and more transparent, how to be more accepting of expressions of platonic love and affirmation between men. And this also applies for women.

Waheed  1:14:06
Right, exactly. And the idea that we can have like brothers and father figures for men, and sisters or mother figures for women. So just like people with OSA, or opposite-sex attractions, can teach us so much as men and women experiencing same-sex attractions, the opposite is also true, because we can also teach people who have opposite-sex attractions a lot of things that they may need to learn as well. So it goes both ways. And that is a beautiful concept. 

In addition to all of that, another important piece of advice is to actually be willing to face the truth about the relationship, and here we're talking about the emotionally dependent relationship. Just be as honest and open about it as you can be, you know, with yourself, with each other, and with other people. And this can be challenging, and it will be challenging, because the person who is emotionally dependent is likely going to have a lot of defenses and so many coping mechanisms, and they’ll make so many justifications and excuses and try to rationalize things, just to keep the relationship going as it is right now. Again, recognize all of these unhealed wounds or the unmet needs that you’re trying to address through this relationship, and try to become willing to grieve the loss that you are feeling and the pains. Whether you may have lost that emotionally dependent relationship, or maybe losses from the past, whether they were family traumas or peer wounds, or anything that may have led to this current emotionally dependent situation. 

And if there are certain things that you can’t see, other people can help you do that, like other close friends or family members who are part of your support group, or a therapist, they can help you see what you can’t see. And they can show you what a healthier or a more typical friendship actually looks like. So, seek the support and help that you can, in order to set the proper boundaries and maintain those boundaries. That is very important. And another thing that we need to mention is, we need to be realistic. Certain needs can never be met as we ideally would want them to be met, or as ideally as they should have been met in our childhood. For example, if my dad did not meet my emotional needs as a kid, maybe dad is no longer around, and that is no longer possible. So, at some point, we have to face the reality that, “I must grieve that, and I must surrender it in order to move on.” But there are other needs that I did not have as a kid growing up that can still be met, especially with relationships with other OSA men. And the same goes for women, as well. 

Those are just general ideas and pieces of advice that we feel would help you, inshaAllah, on your recovery from emotional dependency and codependency. Now, just a couple of questions when it comes to emotional dependency, in particular, that Amina and I would like to address.

Amina  1:17:07
Yeah, so one of the questions is: If a married man or married woman with SSA has developed an emotionally dependent relationship outside of the marriage - it occurs more for men, but it does happen for women, I'm not talking about an affair, that's a totally different thing, I'm just talking about emotional dependency with someone outside the marriage - so what do you do about that then? Whether it's the man or woman, you recommit to placing your spouse first above everyone else, and you may need to do things to kind of win that spouse back. So just being more there and more present for the spouse, and give them the respect and time, attention and affection that you were seeking for yourself outside of the marriage, give those things to your spouse, because they deserve it. And respecting their feelings and their needs and intuition, because sometimes the person with SSA has gas lighted their spouse, basically, for raising concerns about the friendships that did turn out being who they were emotionally dependent with, they didn't want to admit to what what was actually going on. So they have guilted their spouse into, you know, basically believing that nothing was going on, and questioning their reality. 

Ask yourself and your spouse the hard questions, you know, how can I rebuild this trust? I know I have lost your trust, but what can I do now to rebuild that or regain that? What do you need from me to feel safe and at peace and know that it won't happen again? And then if you're able to move past these things, as you foster new friendships, especially with OSA people, and with SSA people as well, invite your spouse into those relationships to be a part of them, instead of excluding them from your new friendships. 

And then, another question is, what about when a spouse of an SSA person starts seeing the person with SSA develop an emotionally dependent relationship with another person, but the person with SSA doesn't want to see it, that it's actually happening, so what does the spouse do? So, in this position, the spouse can't make the person with SSA see something that they don't want to see. So, if the person with SSA is just completely refusing to see it, there's nothing that the spouse can really do or say that's going to make them see it. They will see it at their own time. So the spouse can and should point it out, and they can also enlist the help of others to help point it out to the person with SSA. And then doing the work on themselves, as well, work through his/her own issues. And, most importantly, setting boundaries with the person with SSA, saying what they can or will tolerate with this emotionally dependent relationship.

Waheed  1:20:49
Absolutely. Yep. And another question is: If someone develops an emotionally dependent relationship with another SSA man or woman - so, you know, a man with SSA develops an emotionally dependent relationship with another man with SSA, or a woman with SSA with another woman with SSA - and here, we're talking just about emotional dependency, the question is, should this relationship be severed completely? Now, the answer is not a yes or no, it's a case-by-case thing. The relationship in general does not have to be severed, but it needs to have clear boundaries, right? And there has to be outside accountability, it's better to have someone else, to involve someone, other than the two of them, to help them maintain accountability and maintain those boundaries, because it becomes very difficult to navigate that on their own, especially when there's also codependency involved. 

Some people tell you, “No, cut ties at once, because it's going to be destructive”, and you actually see a lot of therapists say that. Personally, and from the people that I've interacted with, and from my own personal experience with this matter, I will tell you that it's a case-by-case basis, there's no right or wrong answer, it depends on so many different variables. So, it's best that both of you talk about this, consult with a counselor or therapist or your support system, if you're part of a 12-step program, if you have a sponsor, etc. But, in general, there's so much to be learned from this relationship, and to actually be able to transform it into a healthier relationship. So, you may not want to cut ties immediately. And we've alluded to this back in episode 27 when we talked about developing friendships, so you might want to revisit that episode if it really helps you navigate the nuances associated with this. But, again, don't do this on your own, seek help in the process. 

And then a very common question, and it happens in particular with codependent or emotionally dependent relationships: What if the other person threatens suicide or self-harm? It might just be attention-seeking behavior, or it might be real, you know. So it's very important to actually help the other person develop a plan to call for professional intervention, and to seek help, because that is necessary. And if they threaten suicide again, try to empathize with them, and feel with them, be compassionate, and tell them that you understand what they're going through, and then remind them of the plan that you guys agreed upon, to actually seek help from a professional counselor. And also seek help for you as someone who is dealing with that, because it's not easy to deal with someone who is threatening suicide or self-harm, and hand them over to professionals rather than taking responsibility onto yourself, because it can be very draining and very disturbing, and it can take its toll on you, and you will burn out eventually. So, that is very important. Again, you don't have to do this alone, seek help from professionals and trusted individuals, to help you with that. 

1:24:09
We would like to end this episode by summarizing most of the important points that we've been talking about in the past couple of episodes, and these are a list of 30 points that are listed at the end of No More Mr. Nice Guy book by Robert Glover. Amina and I are going to be reading them, five points at a time, try to see which ones resonate with you, try to think about which ones you would like to implement. Try a few of them, maybe add to the list from your own personal rules, write a couple of those on note cards or sticky notes, put them all over, and see how you can implement some of those on a daily basis, so that they can become part of your daily habits. 

Amina  1:24:53
Yeah, so:
1. If it frightens you, then do it too. 
2. Don't settle, every time you settle, you get exactly what you settle for. 
3. Put yourself first.
4. No matter what happens, you will handle it. 
5. Whatever you do, do it a 100%.

Waheed  1:25:18
6. If you do what you have always done, you will get what you have always got. 
7. You are the only person on this planet responsible for your needs, wants and happiness. 
8. Ask for what you want.
9. If what you are doing isn't working, then try something different. 
10. Be clear and be direct.

Amina  1:25:45
11. Learn to say no.
12. Don't make excuses. 
13. If you're an adult, you're old enough to make your own rules. 
14. Let people help you.
15. Be honest with yourself. 

Waheed  1:26:05
16. Do not let anyone treat you badly. No one, ever. 
17. Remove yourself from a bad situation, instead of waiting for the situation to change. 
18. Do not tolerate the intolerable, ever. 
19. Stop blaming, victims never succeed. 
20. Live with integrity. Decide what feels right to you, then do it. 

Amina  1:26:34
21. Accept the consequences of your actions. 
22. Be good to yourself.
23. Think abundance.
24. Face difficult situations and conflict head on.
25. Don't do anything in secret. 

Waheed  1:26:55
26. Do it now. 
27. Be willing to let go of what you have so you can get what you want.
28. Have fun. If you're not having fun, something is wrong.
29. Give yourself room to fail. There are no mistakes, only learning experiences. 
And, finally, 30. Control is an illusion. Let go, and let life happen.

1:27:28
And with this, we have come to the end of today's episode, and this marks the end of our series on attachments, codependency and emotional dependency. In the next episode, we will be talking about setting boundaries. It's a very important discussion for all of us, and it builds on all of the knowledge that we have presented so far in this season, particularly the series on complex trauma, as well as the past couple of episodes with Amina on attachments, codependency and emotional dependency. Until next time, stay safe and healthy. Amina and I look forward to talking to you in the next episode. This has been Amina and Waheed Jensen in “A Way Beyond the Rainbow”, assalamu alaikom wa rahmatullahi ta’ala wabarakatuh.

Episode Introduction
Reclaim Your Place and Power in Relationships
Cost-Benefit Analysis for Relationships
For Men: Reclaim Your Masculinity
Reclaim Your Purpose and Find Your Path
Healing Emotional Dependency
Robert Glover's 30 Point Summary
Ending Remarks