#53 - On Setting Boundaries (Part II)

This is part II of a 2-episode series on setting boundaries. In this episode, Amina and I discuss setting boundaries with people who have narcissistic tendencies, how to prepare mentally for any pushback, and how to avoid being pulled into the arena of what many psychologists call "pathological narcissists".

What are some characteristics and behaviors of "pathological narcissists", and how might they behave when we start setting boundaries with them? How do I deal with parents, relatives, partners, friends or colleagues who have narcissistic and manipulative tendencies? How do I avoid being manipulated by them? If my parents are actually "pathological narcissists", how do I reconcile being dutiful to them while setting boundaries with them and avoiding their manipulation and mind games? These and other questions are explored in this episode.

References used and resources mentioned in this episode:
- How To Do The Work by Dr. Nicole LePera
- Ross Rosenberg’s videos: "Observe Don't Absorb" technique (example videos here and here), "Induced Conversation" (part I and part II), "Preparing for the Narcissistic Storm" and "12 Potent Tricks" of narcissists

Transcript

Waheed  00:39
Assalamu alaikom warahmatullahi ta’ala wabarakatuh, and welcome to a new episode of “A Way Beyond the Rainbow”, this podcast series dedicated to Muslims experiencing same-sex attractions who want to live a life true to Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala and Islam. I'm your host, Waheed Jensen, and thank you for joining us in today's episode. And joining me again is my dear friend Amina, and we will be continuing our discussion on setting boundaries, picking up from where we left off last time.

Today's discussion revolves around some difficult conversations and sensitive areas, particularly when we want to set boundaries with people who are close to us who may be pathological narcissists, or controlling, abusive, and so on. A lot of us struggle with that. So, building on the information that we've presented in the previous episode and all of the episodes in this season, we are going to continue this conversation and talk about how to set boundaries and navigate the pushback and the repercussions of setting boundaries with difficult people, particularly those who may be classified as having pathological narcissistic tendencies. We've previously spoken about pathological narcissists with the definition that Ross Rosenberg uses, i.e. people who have narcissistic personality disorder, and some people who have borderline personality disorder, or antisocial personality disorder, or people who may have addictive behaviors and compulsive disorders that have narcissistic tendencies. So, those are the ones that he terms “pathological narcissists”, and they exhibit a lot of the characteristics that we'll be talking about today in this episode. So let's get started, inshaAllah. 

02:36
Throughout the podcast, particularly back in season one and in this season, we have touched upon shame and narcissism, and we talked about the ripple effects of narcissistic abuse, and a lot of the power and control strategies, and a lot of the effects of the mistreatment that comes from people who struggle with narcissistic tendencies, whether they’re parents or loved ones, and how that really tends to affect a lot of their relationships. When it comes to us, you know, a lot of the voices that we have in our head, that inner parent/inner critic that we've talked about, a lot of this might come from, or a lot of these internal narratives that play in our head and the shame narratives and inner parent, sometimes that might come from a lot of the narcissistic abuse that we have been exposed to growing up. There may have been a lot of gas lighting in our families, where we were led to believe certain things that were not real, where our reality was twisted, where we were led to believe that we are not good enough, unlovable, no matter what we do, we're not going to be loved by anyone, we’re not good enough in the eyes of people, we were tricked to believe that we are going to fail in situations no matter how hard we tried. You know, there were a lot of manipulation and control strategies from the side of those exhibiting narcissistic tendencies.

Now, in the previous episode, we talked about the fact that setting boundaries with others is going to stir up a lot of insecurities in us, particularly if this is new territory for us. And this change is going to be perceived as a threat by others, particularly people who have narcissistic tendencies who live with us, whether they’re parents or siblings or spouses, or maybe even friends and colleagues, or supervisors. Whenever we embark upon particular changes, the forces are going to be mobilized to try and neutralize any change that we try to do. If change keeps on happening from our side, the equilibrium is lost in the relationship, and they're going to be trying to retaliate and fight back, because without equilibrium, this is when “shit hits the fan”, and all of the anger and frustrations are going to come up from the other side. Ross Rosenberg calls this the “earthquake stage”, where, when you start to set boundaries, it's going to cause ‘seismic shifts’ in the relationship, literally earthquakes in relationships, where the other partner or the other person is unstable emotionally and/or has narcissistic tendencies, or is manipulative, abusive or controlling. 

Now, if you think about that, particularly if someone is codependent and starts to set boundaries, it's, metaphorically, as if you are peeling away the other person's fingers, and here we're talking about someone who has pathological narcissism, you're peeling away their fingers, one finger at a time, from your throat, to stop their chokehold of you, of us. People who struggle with codependency they begin to protect themselves from the pathological narcissist when they set boundaries and maintain those boundaries. And it's very important for us to seek help in the process, we can't do this alone. We need people to help us - be that a therapist, a support group, a safe person, a mentor, a counselor, a trustworthy friend, or all of the above to help us navigate through that. It requires preparation and support and even safety planning, and we'll talk about this more. 

With some people who struggle with pathological narcissism, it can even be dangerous to set particular boundaries, because they may retaliate with abuse, be it physical, emotional, even sexual abuse, they may retaliate with threats, they may cut you off financially, or cut your children off financially or your loved ones, they may threaten your loved ones. It can be dangerous. Of course, not everyone does that. But you know, different situations may happen depending on the other person. So, it is expected that this will induce a lot of anxiety, fear, panic, even depression, and you may find yourself having PTSD-like reactions or symptoms, post-traumatic stress, because, remember, all of this goes back to attachment trauma and complex trauma. So, your fight-flight-freeze response is going to be activated, your survival brain takes over. That's why it's important to seek support and help in the process, because it's very difficult to do this on your own, particularly during the early stages. 

Amina  07:37
Yeah, so when setting boundaries with a pathological narcissist, you have to mentally and physically prepare for the onslaught of narcissistic injuries and reactions that are going to occur, whether they're overt or covert reactions, as well as your own fight-flight-freeze responses, because this is going to be a very tumultuous time, it's going to be a rocky path. The narcissist is going to react in basically 12 steps, and these don't have to go in order, they can change, step one could actually be step five, or whatever. So they don't have to go in order. But, at first, they're normally going to become very manipulative, they're going to turn up the “gas” in the “gas lighting”. So they're going to start to make you question your own reality and say that you're overreacting, nothing's really happening, everything's okay… 

Waheed  08:46
When it's not okay, clearly. 

Amina  08:48
Exactly, trying to get you to feel bad for setting the boundary, or putting it all back on you. And then they'll become very aggressive and threatening. That's step two. So this could be physical aggression, or just a turning up the threats mentally to your mental state, or emotional/ psychological state. Step two and three kind of go together; their aggression can either be passive or covert, or it can be very open aggression. So this can take place even if other people see it. So, they could be being mean to you in public, to kind of shame you in public in front of family members, or whatever it is, or it could be more in private. And then step four is sabotage or triangulation or poisoning of the minds. There's many different examples of this, but let's say you have a couple that has a child together, so they can use triangulation in the sense that they get the child involved. 

Waheed  10:09
They don't talk to each other. So they talk to each other through the child. Like, “Go tell your mom that I said so and so, but I won't talk to her.” So the child is like the messenger and goes and tells his mom. And then mom says, “Go tell your dad this and that.” It's like a triangle. Yeah, definitely. 

Amina  10:27
Or they can use any third party, it doesn't even have to be a child, it can be a friend, just any third party that you can think of. Poisoning of the minds can be really dangerous, because it can be a parent telling a child really bad things about their mom. So if it's the dad, the dad can be telling the child “Oh, your mom does this bad thing, and she's a bad person…” and bla bla bla. So, they're poisoning the mind of the child to try and influence the relationship. 

And then step five is willing (insincerely, obviously) to negotiate. So this is when they're saying that “We can negotiate the terms of the boundary”, and they're saying that they're going to change. This kind of goes with step six as well, which is agreeing to stop the problem. So they're saying that they're going to stop whatever they're doing, whatever you're complaining about. But it's always insincere, that's the whole narcissist’s MO (modus operandi) really, that's just what they do.

And then step seven, they agree to go to therapy or treatment. So they're saying “Yes, I would go to therapy/treatment to stop these problems, and sometimes, very rarely, they’ll go, but there will be zero progress during therapy. And then, step eight is when they humanize themselves by talking about their abuse history. So this is kind of like attention seeking, and they basically justify their actions because of their abuse. So they’d say, “Oh, I'm this way, because I was abused, and I can do this to you and treat you this way because I was abused.” But really, there's no justification for abuse, right? They're not allowed to abuse you just because they themselves have been abused. That's not how reality should be, right? 

And then step nine is they're begging for another chance. They're saying they're doing all these things, they're saying that they're going to change, that the problems will stop, they're agreeing to go to therapy, and they're begging you for another chance. And then step 10 is suicide threats or attempts, where they basically say, “If you leave me, if you end this relationship, I'm going to kill myself.” Or they actually try, right? Because how do you leave somebody that is threatening to kill themselves, it's like the ultimate card, the final step of, “Hey, I'm literally going to end my life if you leave.” But that's not on you, you're not responsible for their life. 

Step 11 is just an all-out attack and destruction. I've seen people completely even destroy houses, like physical property, or more likely it’s just an onslaught of mental abuse towards you in the form of hurtful comments. And this is a point where you can just actually become very angry with the narcissist. And then, number 12 is replacement. So, at the point that you're actually ready to just leave the narcissist, and you're done, you've set the boundaries and it hasn't worked, and you realize that they're not going to change, and you move on - or actually, you typically don't move on so quickly, but they just easily replace you. It's just a simple supply and demand; the narcissist is demanding something from you, and that is in the form of attention and love, and you are their supply for that. For the narcissist, this is just a simple business transaction that is very one-sided and one way, you are not getting anything from the narcissist. So, as soon as you cut off the supply, that's it, the narcissist doesn't care. The narcissist just walks away and finds another dealer, he/she finds another supply, because that is all you were to them. And that is, I think, the real test to see if somebody is a narcissist or borderline, you simply cut off the supply, whatever it is that you supplying them, if it's financial, emotional, whatever it is, if you cut that off, and they just leave, then you know that that is all you were to them, as hurtful as that is, you were just their supply, because they will find it somewhere else. If they stick around, then that's slightly different, because that means that you are not just simply supply to them, if they're willing to actually work on things and you actually see actual change, then it means that they actually value the relationship. 

Waheed  15:32
Yeah. Absolutely. 

Amina  15:34
So, at this point, when you're going through this with a narcissist, it's very important to assess your physical safety, and make sure that's taken care of, that's number one. Address the imminent risk around you, you know, in the form of domestic violence or child abuse. If that's an issue, consider changing your residence or calling authorities for protection in the form of restraining order, or whatever it is, because your safety and the safety of your loved ones are key. Potential issues with sabotage, as well as public and personal shaming by the pathological narcissist also need to be considered, and please make sure you're not alone in this. Consult with your therapist, mentors and support systems, and keep contact with them as you navigate all this. 

Waheed  16:41
Now, the question is, on a practical level, how do we deal with a person who has narcissistic tendencies or is a “pathological narcissist”, who is fighting back and pulling us into their arena, whether that is my spouse, my parent, my sibling, my friend, my colleague, my boss, or an acquaintance or whoever that may be? There are lots of helpful techniques to actually help you when that person is manipulating you, just to get you to react, so that they can start reacting further. Ross Rosenberg talks about many helpful techniques that Amina and I are going to be sharing with you briefly. 

One of them is known as the ODA technique, the “Observe, Don't Absorb” technique that he talks about. And we'll be adding a lot of his videos to the episode description so you can listen to them further. The ODA technique, or the “Observe, Don't Absorb” technique, helps us to emotionally disconnect from the manipulation of the narcissist and their threats and the harms that come from them (those who are trying to kind of pull us into an argument to try and control us). They love to fight and to wrestle, and not literally (though it can be that), but figuratively, because they want to mess up with our brains and minds. So, it's important not to fight with them; as much as you really want to fight back, resist that urge to do so. They want to get you to fight, because that is their territory, and they are very good at that. Ross Rosenberg quotes George Bernard Shaw, who once said, and I'm quoting here, “Never wrestle with a pig, you just get dirty, and the pig enjoys it.” So don't do that, because they know how to do it, and they enjoy doing that. So, you can never win in their arena, because you have to get down and dirty, and you have to resort to their way of thinking and to become manipulative. You are above that. Don't do that. The only way to win with them is to not fight, and to disassociate from that moment. You are triggered to fight in that moment, they want you to engage, they're getting under your skin; in that moment, disassociate from that particular situation. 

Sometimes there's nowhere else to go. If you can actually leave that room or that place and go out for some time, that would be great. But, sometimes, we're stuck in a place/room with them, and we can't really escape that physical space in that particular time, we are forced to be in that situation. So, we need to be in control of ourselves and our emotions. So the ODA technique, as it is called: Observe and don't absorb. So the first step is to observe - who is doing the harm? That person. He/She is doing the harm. Sometimes, our thoughts are doing the harm, sometimes there's no one else with us, but our thoughts are the ones doing the abuse, right? See where that harm is coming from, because those voices might be a result of narcissistic conditioning that we grew up with, or that we're living with, which also becomes the voice in our head. And sometimes it might actually be a real person in front of us who is triggering us. 

So, anyway, observe that emotional manipulator, and see how dysfunctional and wounded they are, that they actually resorted to all of this in the first place. Ross Rosenberg lists a couple of techniques that we can actually use in this “observe” stage. You can imagine yourself in a white coat as a clinician, or as a doctor, who is listening to the patient, imagine that the manipulator is the patient. If you are a doctor, and the patient is doing the manipulation, you are already distanced from them, you're not emotionally involved, you're emotionally detached. The manipulator cannot manipulate you if you do not react. So watch, listen, and don't react. 

Another thing that you can do, as the doctor does, is to examine the person from head to toe, and see the emotional reactions that they exhibit. See what they are trying to do and see what they are saying. See how their body moves in the process. Another thing to do in this phase is to repeat yourself the mantra, “Observe, do not absorb… Observe, do not absorb…” Repeat that to yourself to remind yourself that “I'm here to just observe, I'm not going to absorb their energy and their pain and whatever they're trying to project.” And then breathe, it's very important to breathe, because at that point, our survival brain is going to take over, and we're going to engage in that fight-flight-freeze response. Be grounded in that moment, practice the mindfulness exercises that we've been talking about throughout the season. Be in that moment, and try as much as possible to remain relaxed and unaffected.

Another example that Ross Rosenberg gives is to imagine that you're wearing a Teflon suit or an armor suit, whereby nothing gets through it. If someone shoots bullets, nothing is going to get through that armor, nothing sticks, you are safe. Whatever insults or words or triggers they throw at you, those are going to immediately fall right off. 

Another way to think about that is to imagine the manipulator holding a syringe, and they want to inject you with poison, the syringe contains poison. The only way they can do that is if you react in a way they want you to react, meaning to be triggered, respond, get angry and get emotional. That's the only way they can inject you with that poison, so refuse to be injected with that poison, and remain relaxed, and don't fight back. So that is all part of the “observe”. 

The second part is “don't absorb”, meaning don't get triggered, don't have a reaction, because if you do have a reaction, whatever that reaction is, you will show them that they have succeeded. Do not absorb their messages, whatever these messages are, do not react to their messages. Acknowledge in your mind that that person is saying things, they're spreading things, whatever they're doing, but everything they're saying is not fact. It is not right. Breathe it away. It's like recognizing, again, that there's a bottle of poison in front of you. You can see the poison, you can pick up the poison, you can identify the poison, but you're not going to drink the poison. That way, you have taken away the power of the pathological narcissist. “I see you, I can see right through you, I'm not going to react.” That way, they become weak, and they know it. 

And whenever it is possible, extricate yourself from that situation and leave, whenever it becomes possible, without reacting any further. If you find yourself getting triggered, emotionally charged, try and breathe, relax, make thikr (remembrance), make du’aa (prayer) in the process. Recite a particular Surah, or a particular verse, reconnect with Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala in that moment, ask for His support. Another way to be in that moment is to just say, “Of course!” to yourself, and this is something that Ross Rosenberg talks about as well. He says that this would help you see the other person and what they're really doing. Like you might say to yourself while that person is fighting back, “Of course he is acting this way, he's always done that”, “Of course, she's saying these words, she's always done that”, “Of course, he's humiliating me in front of others”, “Of course, she's calling me names and pushing my buttons”, “Of course, he's threatening to take away my money”, “Of course this. of course that”, because that is all predictable, right? This is not new territory. They are trying to rope you into the arena, to disempower you, to control you, to hurt you, or whatever they're trying to do. Observe, don't absorb. Detach yourself. See the other person's damage, don't absorb their damage, and move on. 

This takes practice. This is not easy. I have personally dealt with a parent who is a pathological narcissist, and it was hell. But, alhamdulillah, I'm in a much better place, and I was able to implement a lot of these techniques in my life and to set boundaries. And, now it's a much, much better relationship because of that. And that parent knows that I can see through them, and I'm not tolerating any of their manipulations anymore, and they don't resort to these behaviors around me, because I've set these boundaries and I've kept them. It took a long time and took a lot of effort, but alhamdulillah, I got there, and so can you, inshaAllah.  

Amina  25:30
I'm so happy for you! 

Waheed  25:32
Thank you! I really appreciate that. 

Amina  25:34
Yeah! That's really cool! 

Waheed  25:36
Thank you! 

Amina  25:38
Yeah. Because everybody knows my ex-wife was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. But man, I just know how hard that is to get through… 

Waheed  25:51
Exactly. Everything that we've been talking about, like the characteristics of the narcissist, the 12-stages and stuff. I'm like, girl, I was actually recounting the different kinds of situations that I was put in, as you were recounting all of that, and just reliving those experiences, but alhamdulillah. It's been a journey, and we all learn in the process, alhamdulillah. 

Amina  26:17
Yeah. So, this kind of goes into one of the narcissist’s reactions, which is “induced conversation”, which I'm sure Waheed has experienced this, and I experienced this. So this is kind of at the point when you've left the narcissist or the borderline, and they are trying any way to bring you back into a conversation - well, let me rephrase that, because it doesn't technically have to be that you've already left them or left the relationship, whether it's family… 

Waheed  26:57
Maybe you set certain boundaries? 

Amina  26:59
Yeah, you set certain boundaries, and this is a way for them to literally what the term is, they're trying to induce a conversation with you. So, you know, this can take form in some sly ways. So for me, my ex-wife and I had already been divorced, and she just texted me, she called me first and then texted me or emailed me and just asked, “Oh, is there any mail for me at your house?” When we both had the conversation months prior, that the address had already been changed, the mail would be going to her new house, like there was no reason for the mail to be coming to my house. But it's just a way to try and get me to talk with her. And so then, they want to do this, because it opens the door for a conversation, they induce a conversation, and then to repeat the entire cycle all over again. To rope you into some kind of mental/psychological/physical abuse, whatever, to rope you back into their arms through a conversation, and they try to do it in a way to something that you have to respond to. So, sometimes, it can even be done pretty aggressively. It can be done in a sense where, if you have a kid together, they can say, “Oh, Billy…” we'll just say the kid's name is Billy, “Billy’s teacher called and said that we should talk, you and I should talk because of some things that are happening with Billy or whatever”, and sometimes it's not even true, sometimes that event didn't even occur. And they're just trying to do anything to get you to talk to them, to start the cycle all over again.  

Waheed  29:01
So that’s induced conversation, which, again, Ross Rosenberg talks about, and we'll add some videos to help you understand this more. But this is another manipulation technique by a lot of the pathological narcissists, right? 

Amina  29:17
Right.  

Waheed  29:18
The idea is not to get roped in or pulled into their arena, try to see through their behaviors and not give them what they want. 

Amina  29:27
Yeah. 

Waheed  29:36
When it comes to parents, in particular, the topic of setting boundaries with our parents, particularly in our Muslim families and communities, is a very sensitive topic. Imams and parents themselves, they throw verses and ahaadeeth right and left about being dutiful to our parents. And while the concept of birr and duty to our parents are fundamental - we can't stress enough the importance of birr and being beautiful to our parents, of course, this goes without saying - but many times, those Quranic verses and ahaadeeth are used to twist our arms and to manipulate us, particularly if one of the parents or both of them are narcissistic.  

Now, this section of the episode might be news to a lot of the listeners, but this discussion has to be had. Duties, they go both ways: From parents to the kids, and then from kids to the parents. Birr goes both ways. Sometimes, parents over fixate on their kids being dutiful and caring towards them, then they forget that they have duties towards their own kids. In Islam, what are the obligations for the parents on behalf of their kids? Parents have the obligation to choose a suitable and proper spouse for themselves who would then become a co-parent for their kids; meaning, the husband chooses a suitable wife to become a proper mother for their kids, and the wife chooses a proper husband to become the father for their kids. So, if I'm a pushover, I don't go and choose a narcissist to become my spouse and then end up traumatizing the kids. We've been talking about this over and over, we've seen the effects of this arrangement so far. Those are not appropriate relationships, the “human magnet syndrome” is toxic in and of itself, and we've touched upon this earlier. We choose proper spouses who are going to become parents to our kids, and we're going to raise them righteously, without traumatizing them. And other duties of the parents, what do they include? Giving their kids proper names, taking care of the kids financially and providing for them, teaching them the Deen and matters of the dunya, and then instilling in them proper manners, and teaching them appropriate life skills. Treating the kids - if you have more than one kid - to treat them with equity and justice, and not to favor one over the other, whether that's through money, or love, or care and showing them mercy or making future plans for them, like favoring one over the others, or boys more than girls and so on. That's not acceptable. And then, other obligations include like when the kids are grown up, and they need help to get married, like financially, they cannot do that on their own, but they need help, and the parents are able to help them out, then that's also the parents’ duty to actually do that. So, all of these are obligations from the parents towards their kids. And, obviously, the kids have obligations towards their parents in terms of honor and respect and to help them out, and you know, in terms of financial obligations on behalf of the male children when they grow up to take care of their parents, etc., and so on and so forth. 

Now, what we're talking about here are narcissistic parents, what happens with these parents? With regards to the duties and the obligations that I've just listed, we can see that some or all of these duties are neglected or flipped over. So, in a nutshell, what happens with pathological narcissists who are parents? Again, we've spoken about this earlier, when we talked about complex trauma and the different styles of parenting. It's all according to the parents’ benefits, their whims, what they want, what they desire. Things are always conditional. Money and providing for the kids are conditional based on what you do for me or how you make me feel. The love that I show you the mercy and the care that I show you are conditional. Teaching matters of the Deen and dunya may not be complete, or it may come with conditions. There's a lot of punishment, there's a lot of trauma, abuse and neglect going on. All of these are common when they raise kids. If there are multiple kids, it's very common to play mind games or to manipulate them, to turn them against each other, to blackmail them to do certain things that the parents want, and so on. There's little to no equity or justice in the treatment of children. Religion is often used for purposes of blackmail or manipulation, unfortunately, you know, and we've seen this over and over again, when kids refuse to comply or they do something against their parents’ wishes, we’re often slapped with Quranic verses and ahadeeth that talk about the children's obligations and the rights of parents and so on and so forth. The most common verse that we hear is from Surat Al-Israa’, verse 23, “For your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him, and honor your parents. If one or both of them reach old age in your care, never say to them ˹even˺ ‘Uff!’ nor yell at them. Rather, address them respectfully” [Surat al-Israa’ 17:23]. Yet they somehow conveniently overlook the very next verse in the same Surah, when Allah says, “And lower to them the wing of humility out of mercy and say, ‘My Lord, have mercy upon them as they brought me up [when I was] little’” [Surat al-Israa’ 17:24]. Brought me up = ربياني = involves proper upbringing (tarbiya) and raising one’s kids righteously. These parents did everything but that. When Allah says, “and honor your parents,” the condition is stated in the next verse, “as they brought me up when I was little.” If they didn’t fulfill their duty of bringing you up righteously, it’s problematic in this case. The concept of duty/birr applies to someone who is a muhsin (someone who shows benevolence and excellence in behavior), that parent as to do that. But if the parent is a flat-out tyrant, then that is not proper tarbiya, that’s not a proper way of bringing kids up and raising them.

We also read in Surat al-Nisaa’, verse 148, “Allah does not like evil speech to be said openly except from anyone wronged. Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing” [4:148]. Al-Hasan al-Basri commented on this verse, saying, “One should not invoke (the curse of) Allah against whoever wronged him. Rather, he should supplicate [by saying], ‘O Allah! Help me against him and take my right from him.’” But, also, in another narration, al-Hasan said, “Allah has allowed one to invoke Him against whoever wronged him without transgressing the limits.'” Now, putting this in context, how many times do we see such parents (and here, we’re talking about those narcissistic parents) use God’s names to curse their children, punish them or otherwise discipline them, while the children haven’t done anything wrong in the process? The children are the ones wronged here, and the principle of justice in the verse itself applies. “Allah does not like evil speech to be said openly except from anyone wronged.” Children have every right when they’re mistreated like that to voice their frustrations and not take abuse anymore. That is not acceptable, and no one should use religion to cover up such mistreatment. 

Of course, voicing our frustrations, setting boundaries and putting limits doesn’t involve disrespectful speech or fighting manipulation with more manipulation. It’s doesn’t work that way. We uphold our virtues, set boundaries and seek proper help (professional, even legal) when required. It’s important to know, and we’ve been talking about this, when we confront those narcissistic parents, we are still obliged to show them respect by speaking well, and not disrespecting them with our words or making disrespectful gestures (and so on). And I know it’s difficult when we’re enraged or when we’ve accumulated a lot of abuse over the years, but we can train ourselves to do that and ultimately deliver the messages in the best ways if we seek Allah’s help and abide by proper manners. It doesn’t mean we’re doormats and we let them walk all over us. That is not acceptable. We’re not weak or repressing, but rather we’re strong and respectful. Being strong doesn’t mean I’m going to be disrespectful and shouting and mean, cursing, etc. No. We are strong and benevolent human beings, right? And that is the quality of proper Muslims and Mu’mineen (believers).

We also read in Surat Luqman, verse 15, “But if they [i.e., parents] endeavor to make you associate with Me that of which you have no knowledge, then do not obey them but accompany them in [this] world with appropriate kindness” [31:15]. We are asked to show our parents appropriate kindness, while at the same time standing firm against their wayward behaviors that they may show. Appropriate kindness would preclude saying “Uff!” or not showing them honor, even when we confront them with their bad behavior, standing one’s ground, and not allowing oneself to be walked all over. 

All of these verses and other verses and ahadeeth that talk about birr, in and of themselves, they are very important, and a lot of the saheeh ahadith that talk about the obligation and importance of birr/dutifulness to our parents. We should all be dutiful to our parents in principle. But the kinds of parents that we’re talking about here specifically are the manipulative, narcissistic parents who have made our lives a living hell growing up, who have traumatized us and driven us crazy. It’s unjust to sit and take all the pain under the pretext of being good to one’s parents. That is nonsense. Allah says in Surat al-Hajj, verse 60, “And whoever responds [to injustice] with the equivalent of that with which he was harmed and then is tyrannized, Allah will surely aid him. Indeed, Allah is Pardoning and Forgiving” [Surat al-Hajj, 22:60]. This verse applies to injustice in general, and it applies perfectly to injustice within the family unit. When we try to respond/set limit and boundaries with such tyrannical parents, what do they often do in return? They retaliate with more tyranny and abuse. You set boundaries and say “no”, they make your life even more miserable. What does God say in this verse? “Allah will surely aid him,” meaning the one who is facing the injustice. No one is above justice or free from retribution. Allah is the All-Just, and He sees everything—whether it be a tyrannical parent, sibling, relative, colleague, boss or whoever is doing that kind of injustice. He SWT says, “And whoever responds [to injustice] with the equivalent of that with which he was harmed and then is tyrannized, Allah will surely aid him.” So that is all important to keep in mind. 

Amina  40:55
And another form of injustice, in addition to everything Waheed has mentioned, is when parents push the kid to marry someone that the parents want, or when they force their son or daughter to get a divorce, because they don't like their son- or daughter-in-law. So, they can make recommendations and give advice, but they actually have no right to force their kids into anything of this nature. So, a woman once approached the Prophet (PBUH) to complain that her father had married her to his nephew (her cousin) without first obtaining her consent. And she said that her father wanted to enhance his reputation through the marriage. So the Prophet (PBUH) annulled the marriage, and later, the woman told the Prophet (PBUH), “Now that I am free, I willingly consent to this marriage, I only wanted it to be known that men have no say over women in their marriages”, meaning parents forcing their kids to get married.  

Another example is when parents force their kids to study something at college or to avoid a particular career path, or they just choose for them a particular career and lifestyle. So, of course, they can give advice and recommendations when it comes to these things, but kids have to choose for themselves in the end. So, if there's any force or manipulation, control, or even throwing around religious arguments to get their kids to do or not to do particular things, for the purpose of parents having their own way, then that is not acceptable at all. So all the examples we just gave are examples where this lack of dutifulness on behalf of the parents towards their kids. 

Waheed  42:53
Right, and basically like, in Arabic, we use the term ‘Uquq to refer to kids having lack of dutifulness towards their parents, but there's also ‘Uquq of parents towards their kids. And so it goes both ways, and we need to be able to talk about that, right? 

Amina  43:11
Yeah, I think it's actually pronounced "Ukook"? 

Waheed  43:14
‘Uquq. Yeah, well, you got it. You got it pretty much right! 

Amina  43:19
We can't stress this enough. All this is unacceptable, un-Islamic and inhumane, and it should not be taken for granted or given the pretext of piety, Deen or any of that. It's just a load of BS, and we need to call it for what it is. If they don't like it, then it's on them. 

Waheed  43:39
Full stop. Amen!

Amina  43:42
There’s a difference between dutifulness to our parents and the punishments we incur when we're not dutiful to them, versus taking on abuse and justice and trauma from our parents and accepting that as a sign of being dutiful to them. Allah does not accept injustice, so why do our scholars and imams keep recycling weak and untrue hadeeths about accepting injustice from our parents as a sign of dutifulness? 

Waheed  44:11
Exactly. 

Amina  44:12
One common hadeeth that's weak, and some hadeeth specialists have actually considered it to be not even acceptable, is where the Prophet (PBUH) said, “He who wakes up dutiful to his parents will have two open doors in Jannah, and if he has one parent then one door. And he who enters the time of evening undutiful or impious to God in relation to his parents, then he has two open doors in Hellfire, and if he has one parent, then one door”, to which he was asked, “Even when he is wronged?” And the Prophet (PBUH) replied, “Even when he is wronged”, and repeated that three times. 

Waheed  44:58
And in Arabic, he says, “وإن ظلماه” three times, which is basically like, even when he is wronged, you know, you don't retaliate, or you don't do anything, and you just accept the injustice. And that is a weak and/or unacceptable hadeeth according to hadeeth specialists. So, basically, we can actually think about, you know, why is this going on in a lot of our Muslim communities, even though a lot of the correct ahaadeeth on birr and ‘uquq are balanced and enough to begin with? So, a lot of people argue like, why do we keep on recycling all of these weak ahaddeth that say, okay, we need to take on the injustice, when that is not fair? We may have inherited this false understanding from our predecessors, and a lot of Imams have done so from their own predecessors, or they may deliberately circulate this misinformation to kind of convince the masses to follow authority. You know, as in, follow the parental authority no matter what, even when you're abused, and this kind of makes us accept all forms of authority, even that of scholars and Imams and community leaders. So there is a kind of a political aspect of it, if we think about that. It's just another form of toxic authority that is unjust and unfair. And it's very important to mention at this point that scholars and Imams and community leaders should stand up for us, against any acts of injustice, and not perpetuate or propagate them, because what a lot of them are doing is actually propagating those matters without even realizing it. They are propagating all of these things that convince people to take on the injustice as an act of being dutiful to Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala. That doesn't make sense whatsoever. 

Amina  46:43
Alright! And, yes, you might be thinking that the narcissistic parent has had his/her own traumas and is dealing with his/her own problems, and that is most likely true. They are themselves products of their own upbringing and complex traumas, and they're simply recycling this trauma to the next generation. We've touched upon this earlier. However, going through such traumas and ending up this way does not excuse one's behavior and injustice. Just like I said before, there is no justification for abuse, you can't blame your own childhood to in turn use that to abuse others. So, those people haven't lost their mind such that they are excused from judgment in a legal sense. Rather, they're conscious, and they have full mental capacity to make these decisions, and they are choosing this route. Most people that talk about domestic violence, they will always tell you this is the choice, the abusers are choosing to abuse. So, they have willingly made such decisions and will be held accountable for them. But putting this in proper context, realizing their inner brokenness and pain, it helps us understand them a bit, it helps us humanize them a bit. While at the same time, we can humanize them, we don't have to excuse or justify their behavior. And, of course, we're all for understanding and helping them and allowing for healing to happen, and if they're willing to listen and be vulnerable with time and seek help and overcome their problems, then that's great. But if not, then you are simply not responsible for changing anyone. And you're still respectful in your approach, but you set boundaries and limits and realize that justice is important. You're simply not a doormat or a pushover, and you are your own person, and you're responsible for taking care of yourself. 

Waheed  48:43
Beautifully said, couldn't agree honestly. And then another point that is worth mentioning here is that the concept of forgiveness is thrown around our communities a lot. "Forgive them, they don’t know better", "Forgive them, they might die tomorrow", "Forgive, Allah forgives", and yes, these are all wonderful, and we agree. But Allah is also just. Again, we’re not talking about trivial matters here, misunderstandings or usual family fights that every family has. We’re rather talking about manipulative, cunning and narcissistic parents who have a pathology and who have made their children go through utter hell growing up, and they may still manipulate their adult kids. The concept of العفو عند المقدرة—pardoning/forgiveness when one is capable of exacting revenge—refers to forgiveness when you are stronger and the wrong side is weaker. That’s where your true strength lies, and it’s laudable when you forgive at that point. Remember when the Prophet PBUH and Muslims opened Mecca after going back there and were victorious, and the non-believers came asking the Prophet (PBUH) for forgiveness/peace, and the Prophet (PBUH) granted them that? That’s an example of العفو عند المقدرة, when you are the stronger party and the others are the weaker ones. But when we’re weak and traumatized and say, “Yeah, we forgive them,” that’s not true forgiveness, but rather a statement of incapacity and weakness. So, please, enough nonsense. We need to be better than this as communities. These matters have to be cleared up.

Many of these parents are tryants, dictators and Pharaohs with a god complex. And this is not an exaggeration. The Sahaba and the righteous predecessors met ihsan with ihsan (righteousness with righteousness) and dutifulness with dutifulness, but they also took their right from those who did not honor their rights to begin with. Again, throughout this season and even going back to season 1, we have seen the toxic ripple effects of narcissistic family patterns, manipulation, abuse, neglect and trauma. Accepting all that and being passive, and saying that I’m being obedient by taking it all in, and it comes as it comes, this is all nonsense. Propagating these notions in our communities and convincing people that this is right is only enabling the abuse and trauma in our communities, and this has to stop. And I hope that we’ve delivered the message. 

Given everything we have said, we can understand how such a misinterpretation of religion (forcing kids to remain dutiful to tyrannical parents and accept abuse) would lead a lot of kids to eventually leave the Deen altogether. People leave Allah because of this. The pain is just unbearable. Religion is seen as something out of touch with reality, unfair and unjust. And a message to parents who might be listening who are struggling with their narcissistic tendencies: people’s sins and mistreatments are not forgotten. You will die but the Just One (Allah) will not. Do whatever you want in this life, but know that you will be treated the same way you treat other people. You will reap what you sow. Apologize when you’ve done something wrong and make amends. It’s not too late to make things right. But if you still refuse, then fear Allah and the Day on which you will meet Him, when you will be held accountable for all of the things that you’ve done.

And, of course, please understand that we are not referring to parents who are doing their best but have their flaws (which we all do), or to the usual familial misunderstandings, fights that happen in all families, and all these familiar things. Rather, we are referring to parents who are pathological narcissists, as we have discussed in the previous episodes, and in this episode in particular, who engage in manipulation, controlling, gas lighting, twisting reality, calling us “needy” when we express our legitimate needs, and all of these things. They engage in these behaviors just to serve their own ends, and this happens over long periods of time (ever since we were kids, even as adults, this keeps on happenings, we have witnessed this growing up—recall our talk on complex trauma, and see the ripple effects of all of these behaviors). This is what we are referring to here, and you have every right to put an end to this. Set boundaries, and if you need to, even cut ties to protect yourself and your loved ones, because those people (i.e. narcissistic parents) are the ones transgressing boundaries and propagating injustice. 

53:58
So we've spoken about narcissistic parents and family dynamics, now what about enmeshed family dynamics? Particularly like, we see this a lot in Muslim cultures and Muslim families. Guilt as a way to kind of get people to do things that you want them to do. Like if you're invited and you really don't want to eat anymore, they guilt you if you don't take a second serving of food, right? Or, you know, when you decline a particular meal because you are cautious when it comes to your diet. They give you disapproving looks or they mock you, or they push back, they expect you to change your habits, and so on. Or when you put certain time limits, they expect to call you anytime, or they expect to visit you anytime, and you have to be there and honor them all the time. And here we're talking about friends, family, etc. Time limit boundaries, again, resource boundaries, these are important. 

When you make a choice, people are going to push back. They might call you incessantly and be like, “Are you okay? Why are you doing this? Why aren't you doing that?” Setting boundaries is going to activate those people. So, it's very important to realize that. All of these enmeshment patterns and everything we've been talking about in this episode and the previous episode, when you set boundaries, people are going to push back, particularly if your family or siblings or friends have been engaged in no boundaries or enmeshment patterns or even narcissistic patterns, right? You have to set those boundaries with them, and you have to be clear and respectful at the same time, of course. 

Some people will make it all about them. “You can do this to me? Who do you think you are? I raised you, I protected you, I did this so and so, why are you doing this to us? You don't respect us anymore”, and bla bla bla. Some people might reprimand you, others might spill secrets, they might threaten you even. Again, we talked about abuse and threats in terms of narcissistic dynamics. Whatever it is, just anticipate that there's going to be push back, and realize that boundaries are necessary. Even if you cut down time that is spent to take care of your mental and physical well-being, this is absolutely necessary. No guilting or shaming anyone, you stand up for yourself. And again, if they play the religion card, don't accept that. You are being dutiful and honorable; you're doing what you have to do, but then you're setting boundaries to protect yourself and your loved ones, and there's no shame about that. That is necessary. 

Amina  56:33
Yeah, I mean, I don't have a real typical Muslim family, just because we're all converts. So, I don't quite share similar experiences with others in that sense. But I do hear… 

Waheed  56:46
But girl! It's not just exclusive to Muslims, even though it's very frequent in Muslim families, about okay! Muslims would be like, “Waheed! What are you doing to us? You're butchering us in this episode! Like this is not cool!” But I'm like, “Honey, we're here to have these difficult conversations!” 

Amina  57:07
Ha! But yeah, so we're all converts, so I don’t quite share the same experience with others. But I do think, just because I'm half-Asian, I think that the Asian culture, Vietnamese specifically, we experience some of the similar things, especially in terms of eating and, you know, wanting the person to take second helpings of food, and the overprotectiveness, and trying to control the child's life and such. But, yeah, just recognizing that you don't always have to give in to everything that your family wants, even though you feel a duty to do so. Like we have a lot to do with family honor in our culture. So like, the family's honor is really based on the kids. And so yeah, just not having to worry about that. At some point, I just realized, you know, screw the family honor, and I'm just going to live my life and do what I want to do. And it's worked out pretty well, I think. 

Waheed  58:22
Yeah, but this is not an invitation for people to be like “Screw the family honor, we're going to do whatever we want!” But rather to just… Honestly, like, the way that I see it, if you take out the cultural interpretations and the prejudice that we put on the Deen, as we've been talking about, and just seeing things the way that Allah wants us to see things and to abide by things, honestly it makes a big difference. Because, at the end of the day, Allah created us with this fitrah, that authentic self that is in harmony with Him and the universe, and He created everything according to a particular balance. And if we follow that balance, then everything falls into its right place. But when we try to alter that balance, things go crazy. So just taking that middle road, the righteous path, that middle road in everything, not going to opposite sides of the spectrum or the extremes of things. It just makes a big difference, you know. But yeah, definitely, I hear you. 

Amina  59:24
Yeah, maybe don't say “Screw that family honor!” I take that back.

Waheed  59:33
Take it back, girl! That is not acceptable! 

59:45
And with this, we have come to the end of today's episode, and this wraps up our six-episode series on attachments, dependency, and codependency, and healing from all of that, as well as setting boundaries and maintaining them. Amina, I want to say, you have been an amazing co-host, and this has been a wonderful series of episodes. I'm very happy to have you back on this podcast. You're a true gem, God bless you. Any last words that you would like to share with us? 

Amina  1:00:18
Just thank you so much for having me again. It was amazing! I had so much fun, and I hope that we help a lot of people, because that's the codependent in me speaking! 

Waheed  1:00:31
Aha! Yeah, we hope that you guys have found these episodes helpful. Please do share with us your comments, suggestions, reflections, and anything you would like to talk about, you can email Amina or me on awaybeyondtherainbow@gmail.com. And, as always, you can listen to all our episodes and find their transcripts on awaybeyondtherainbow.buzzsprout.com, and you can listen to us also on your favorite podcast apps. In the next episode, inshaAllah, we will start our series on sexual recovery, and the first episode is going to be dedicated to Islamic sexual ethics and gender norms. Until then, stay safe and healthy. This has been Amina and Waheed Jensen in “A Way Beyond the Rainbow”, assalamu alaikom wa rahmatullahi ta’ala wabarakatuh.