#52 - On Setting Boundaries (Part I)

This is part I of a 2-episode series on setting boundaries. In this episode, Amina and I discuss what boundaries are, how to define your own boundaries, communicate them and maintain them, as well as techniques on how to say "no" and how to clearly communicate your needs  with others in your life.

Are my boundaries loose, rigid or flexible? What are the three main types of boundaries, and how can I assess these boundaries in my life? What is the difference between emotional dumping and venting? How do I communicate boundaries, say "no" to others and tell others how I feel and what I want/need without hurting them or second guessing myself? How do I deal with any backlash if it takes place? These and other questions are explored in this episode.

References used and resources mentioned in this episode:
- How To Do The Work by Dr. Nicole LePera
- No More Mr. Nice Guy by Dr. Robert Glover
- Ross Rosenberg’s videos on codependency
- Not Nice: Stop People Pleasing, Staying Silent, & Feeling Guilty... And Start Speaking Up, Saying No, Asking Boldly, And Unapologetically Being Yourself by Dr. Aziz Gazipura 

Transcript

Waheed  00:39
Assalamu alaikom wa rahmatullahi ta’ala wa barakatuh, and welcome to a new episode of “A Way Beyond the Rainbow”, this podcast series dedicated to Muslims experiencing same-sex attractions who want to live a life true to Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala and Islam. I'm your host, Waheed Jensen, and joining me for the fifth time in a row is my dear friend Amina, assalamu alaikom again, Amina!

Amina  01:01
Wa alaikom assalam!

Waheed  01:02
How are you doing today?  

Amina  01:04
I'm doing pretty good, same old. 

Waheed  01:08
Alhamdulillah, super! Happy to hear that. So, today's episode is all about boundaries: What are boundaries? How to set them and how to maintain them? And everything that's pertaining to that. As you guys remember, in the past couple of episodes, Amina and I talked about attachment patterns in adulthood, codependency, emotional dependency - we talked about their origins, their characteristics and how to heal and overcome a lot of these challenges. And, today, we will be talking about something that applies to all of these themes, as well as general knowledge for all of us. And this is something very important for all of us to know how to do practically, which is to set boundaries. They're important, very important in so many areas of our lives, whether they're with family, friends, colleagues, bosses, anyone, these are things that are very necessary. And this is quite a long but necessary episode, because it covers a lot of very important themes around boundary setting and maintaining those boundaries. And in the next episode, inshaAllah, part two of setting boundaries, we will be talking about how to set boundaries with pathological narcissists, or people who try to manipulate us, particularly if they are parents or family members, friends, bosses or colleagues, and so on. 

The references that we have used for this episode and the next episode are a synthesis of a lot of Ross Rosenberg's YouTube videos and teachings, as well as Dr. Nicole LePera’s book, How to Do The Work. And we also use No More Mr. Nice Guy by Dr. Robert Glover. We will add the references in the episode description for you guys to check them out anytime. So let's get started, inshaAllah. 

Waheed  03:01
Let's get right into it. What are boundaries? Boundaries simply mean that we have clear limits that separate us from other people. And by us, I mean our thoughts, our beliefs, our needs, emotions, you know, our physical space, our emotional spaces. This separation between us and other people. And this is very important for us to be able to develop, in order to have authentic relationships in our lives and go about leading healthy and balanced lives. When we were children, a lot of us didn't have any boundaries. And, as a result, when we grow up and we become adults, we have difficulty setting boundaries in our relationships in adulthood, whatever these relationships are. If we didn't have space in our childhood to express being separate from other people - having separate emotions, having separate opinions, having separate realities from others, be they our parents or family members, etc., or if we were engaged in what is known as “groupthink”, meaning, our family would be like, “Oh, we don't do that, we do this”, or “We don't think like those people, we think like this”, or “We don't like those people”, “We are this kind of family”, etc. Like everything is dictated on everyone within the family. If that was our reality, where everyone is enmeshed, we were not given the chance to actually express our authentic selves (i.e. the fitrah that we have been talking about throughout the season). 

And we talked about the different kinds of parents and parental figures. As a result of a lot of the lived experiences and the emotional wounding of a lot of our parents, they would view the child, unconsciously, as a means to get their own needs met. Back in the first episode on complex trauma, we talked about the different kinds of parental figures. So, it's very important to realize that a lot of the parental figures were not able to maintain proper boundaries, we grew up not knowing how to set up our own boundaries, because we didn't know how to do that back when we were kids. But nothing is too late, we can always learn to do that, it comes with practice. 

Amina  05:10
Yeah, so in families where there are little to no boundaries, the emotional lines become blurred, because no one in the family has the space to develop autonomy or express their authentic self fully. This process is called enmeshment. So in an enmeshed state within the family, there's a complete lack of separateness, and parent figures are overly invested in their children's lives, and everyone in the family is emotionally activated. Spending time away from other family members is actively discouraged or even punished. There might be constant contact between the family members, but it's because being out of contact brings out fear and emotional reactivity in everyone. So the parent figures fear not being able to control the child, and the child fears being ostracized from the family unit. So, typically, there isn't a true connection in these situations, a uniting of souls, because no one is truly ever fully themselves. And, often, those engaging in these enmeshed patterns will feel a false sense of closeness and kind of this pseudo-intimacy with their family unit, but there's no authentic connection, because true closeness is going to involve mutual sharing with clear boundaries and freedom for everybody for separate realities to exist at the same time, and for everyone to be themselves. 

Waheed  06:41
Absolutely. And we’ve actually spoken about pseudo-intimacy back in the complex trauma episodes, as you guys remember. And again, you know, because we don't have a secure relationship with ourselves, and we have actively denied our own needs, because we grew up in such environments, we don't know what our needs are to begin with, let alone how to actually communicate them clearly. Instead, what happens is that we look to other people in order to draw our limit. So, for example, the people pleaser, we talked about the codependent, the one who strives to always please others and derives his/her sense of validity from them, sacrificing their own emotional, psychological and spiritual well-being without asking for anything in return. As a child, we did this sometimes to receive love, we sacrificed our own needs just to feel validated and loved and seen. And, over time, we develop these feelings of worthlessness and joylessness and depression, because there's a sense of imbalance, and that's not a way to meet our needs. And, with time, as our needs are constantly unmet, we may grow to become angry and resentful, and just out of touch with reality. And all of this becomes intertwined with the fear of abandonment, as well as guilt and shame, and it just keeps us emotionally addicted and stuck in this vicious cycle. 

Amina  08:04
True closeness is going to involve mutual sharing together with the implementation of clear boundaries among everyone. So once we learn how to establish these boundaries, then there's a space for us to be as we really are with others as they really are. It's letting ourselves be who we want to be, but also letting everyone else be who they want to be. And these boundaries protect us and them, so they keep us physically and emotionally balanced, and they help us connect to our intuitive self and are critical to experiencing authentic love, really. Boundaries will provide this necessary foundation for every relationship you have with family members, friendships, romantic relationships, etc. Most importantly, they will provide the necessary foundation for the relationship with yourself. And boundaries become the retaining walls that will protect you from what feels inappropriate or unacceptable, inauthentic, or just not desired. So when boundaries are in place, we feel safer to express our authentic wants and needs, and we're better able to regulate our emotions and reactions, and we really rid ourselves of the resentment that comes along with denying our essential needs. So, boundaries are essential, even though they can be one of the scariest things that you implement, especially if we come from enmeshed family dynamics where boundaries are nonexistent or are constantly trespassed on, but they're very necessary.

Waheed  09:38
Absolutely. As you guys remember, when we spoke about codependency, a lot of people struggling with codependency, they're usually more comfortable with giving in and just keeping the peace, whatever the other person wants, just let us not get into conflict and problems. They believe that if they take one more step backwards, then the other person is going to quit pushing, and then everything is going to be smooth. But the problem is, if you take a step backward, then the other person is going to push forward, and so on and so forth, until you are cornered, and there's no more space for you to step backwards. And this is what usually happens. 

Now, when we are on the journey of healing and recovery, and this is very important to say: Sometimes people are afraid of setting boundaries, because they are afraid of going too far. It is not unusual for us on this journey to actually go a little bit overboard when we first learn about boundary setting, and we go to the opposite side of the spectrum. And that is okay, because there's no way for us to learn if we don't really practice. We sometimes swing from one extreme to another, and that is okay at the beginning, because we learn, and then we kind of see/find that sense of balance. Of course, we apologize if we trespass certain boundaries, but we have to learn in the process, that's how we grow. We learn with time that, you know, we only have to use a little bit of resistance necessary to get the job done, and just say “no”, and navigate that territory to be able to get the things that we need in an appropriate manner, in a healthy manner. 

And another thing that we also learn in the process is that when we set boundaries, it's not about actually getting other people to be different, but it's more about getting ourselves to be different. And if someone is crossing our boundary, it isn't the other person's problem, it's actually my issue that I need to step up and examine and discuss. Remember, when we spoke about codependency, a lot of us are unconsciously reinforcing the behaviors that we find intolerable. Remember, when we spoke about childhood conditioning, as we grew up, we taught people around us that we will accept having our boundaries violated, because we didn't speak up. Or we wanted their attention, affection and love, so we chose not to speak up. Now, when we are on this journey of healing and recovery, and we start to develop boundaries, to actually take responsibility for how we let other people treat us, and to say “no”, we will see that our behaviors begin to change. When we stop reinforcing things that we are not willing to tolerate, like people breaking boundaries, or not accepting the limits that we set, then people around us are going to start to behave differently, because they see that we are standing up for ourselves, right? And all of this gives our relationships a chance to survive and to grow. 

Now, before we start to set boundaries, we have to know how much we back off in order to avoid conflict and to keep the peace. So, what I'm going to ask you to do is, for the next week, try and observe yourself and see: So you say “yes” when you would rather say “no”? Do you agree to something in order to avoid conflict? Do you avoid doing something because someone might get upset at you, so you don't do it? Do you tolerate an intolerable situation, hoping that it will just go away on its own? You know, all of these things… Maybe write them down as you journal, share them with your safe person or your mentor or therapist or support system, and try and see for a couple of days where you stand with regards to all of these things. 

Amina  13:09
Yeah. So codependents typically blame others for a lot of different things that they themselves are upset with. They're always complaining about something someone else is doing or blaming their own feelings based on another person's reaction or action. The reality is, a codependent can't keep complaining about always having to do something or hang out with somebody or whatever it is, because they are the ones who keep doing it. So, the codependent is really reinforcing the fact that they will always do whatever the thing is that they don't want to do. And the other person typically doesn't even know that the codependent doesn't want to participate in the activity or not, or whatever it is, because they're not clearly being told. 

So, if you're always the person that's listening to another person venting, and you keep doing that, you keep being that listener, the person who's venting is obviously just going to keep on venting to you every time, because they don't know that they're not supposed to, because you haven't set that boundary with them. So it's like, you can't even really get mad at them, because they're just operating within your space and within your lack of boundaries. So, until you set a boundary with them, they'll just continue to do so, and they're not really wrong for doing so. So, once you set this boundary with another, it can feel scary, but nobody's going to die when you set that boundary. If you don't want to be the listener all the time, and you need time for yourself, you can set that boundary, and the other person can find somebody else to vent to, they don't always have to vent to you, and it's okay. Like that's healthy. So, you're in control of your actions and your emotions and your feelings. If you don't want to do something, just don't do it. And people will also respect you so much more. And if they don't yet, then they will learn how to within your new set of boundaries. 

Waheed  15:36
I think a lot of us listening would relate to the idea that, you know, a lot of us have never learned how to say “no”. Simply just saying “no” is unprecedented. We say “yes” a lot, and we fulfill too many demands until we hit a breaking point, where we try to put our foot down, so to speak. And then, when we actually do that, we often feel guilty and ashamed about our sudden change in behavior. So, what happens is, we apologize, we try to wave away our own needs, or we over explain, because we want to please the other person, right? If you see yourself in this situation, then there's a very high likelihood that you will benefit from setting boundaries in your life, because a lot a lot of us don't know how to do that. 

There is a very nice book by self-confidence expert, Dr. Aziz Gazipura, and the book’s name is Not Nice: Stop People Pleasing, Staying Silent, & Feeling Guilty... And Start Speaking Up, Saying No, Asking Boldly, And Unapologetically Being Yourself. So this is the title of the book, and you can guess what it's about. The author argues that niceness is based on the formula that, “If I please others, then others will like me, love me, shower me with approval and everything else I want.” He refers to this phenomenon as the “niceness cage”, where there's this compulsion to be valued that locks us in a trap of our own making, which is similar to what Dr. Robert Glover in No More Mr. Nice Guy talks about, the phenomenon of the “nice guy”, aka the codependent, right? The reality is that, when we are “not nice”, meaning, when we are true to our authentic self, our fitrah, the true self, the inner adult, it actually enables us to assert our own value. It doesn't mean that I have to be not nice, but according to my definition, it's actually setting the proper boundaries that I need. It's not about being mean, or arrogant, or inconsiderate, it's actually about knowing what we want, what our limits are, and then communicating that in a healthy way to other people, so that they know that. Learning to say “no” and not being so compliant all the time is a very important part of reclaiming ourselves. It's very important in our healing and recovery journeys. If you don't know how to do that, then that is a big problem, and it needs to be solved. Learning to say “no” is often the kindest thing that you can actually do for yourself and for the people that you love. And personally, I don't know about you, Amina, but I had to learn this the hard way, and I'm still learning, but it is definitely important, and I cannot really overstate that. 

Amina  18:20
Yeah, definitely, saying “no”, it's the hardest part to learn. But now it comes really easy for me. And I think, for a while, I actually was on the other extreme, where I started saying “no” all the time, and I was creating too rigid boundaries, in a sense. But now I feel like I'm in a happy medium where I just don't do things if I don't want to do them, within my limits. And people really respect that around me. So yeah, so some of us will exist on that other extreme, where they’ll create these too rigid boundaries. And then that also is just as detrimental, it doesn't allow for any interconnectedness. You're essentially walling yourself off through emotional withdrawal to stay separated from others, and you uphold these strict rules of conduct and behavior for those who do make it past the wall. So if they make it past the wall, you have kind of a set code for how they have to behave once they're past that wall. 

And you see this behavior typically if a boundary was repeatedly violated in childhood by a primary attachment figure, and then this leads to the individual continuing to feel unsafe in most other relationships. So, for some, the wall we build is just a form of protection after living in a very enmeshed childhood experience, and when withdraw out of your self-preservation, to preserve yourself, we make free and spontaneous connections with other humans impossible. So keeping us and others more controlled, and we assume that, if we can control everything and everyone, then we will be safer. But in doing so, we're repressing our intuitive voice, and we end up in the same lonely and inauthentic place as those who live with no boundaries at all. 

Waheed  20:27
Absolutely. Yep. 100%. And, you know, speaking of all of these things, as you observe yourself for a couple of days, or a week or two, you know, the previous exercise we talked about, spend some time looking at the different aspects of your life, and try and identify where your boundaries fall. There are three categories of boundaries, let's look at them that way: There are too rigid boundaries, too loose boundaries, and then there are flexible boundaries in between.  

The rigid ones, you can think about them as such: You have few intimate or close relationships, you have a chronic fear of rejection, and, overall, you have difficulty asking for help, and you are very, very private. So that's the rigid kind. 

The loose kind, on the opposite side of the spectrum: You engage in compulsive people pleasing, you define your self-worth by the opinions of others, you have general inability to say “no”, you're consistently oversharing private information, and you are this chronic helper/savior/rescuer, a lot of overlaps with the codependency characteristics we talked about. 

The flexible boundaries are when you are aware of and you value your own thoughts and opinions and beliefs, you know how to communicate your needs to other people, you share personal information appropriately with people who are appropriate to share these things with, and you are consistently able to say “no” when you need that, and you accept others when they do the same thing, when they say “no”. You are able to regulate your emotions, and you allow others to express themselves. So, try and see where you fit in between. It doesn't have to be one or the other, it might be in between. So try and just evaluate yourself, and see where you stand in terms of these three kinds.

Amina  22:18
Yeah, and I think with all kinds of boundaries, it's really key to understand that the boundary is not for others, it's really for you. And it's not an ultimatum, it's different from an ultimatum, because an ultimatum is a statement that will assign a consequence to someone else's behavior as a means of trying to change it. You're not trying to change people when you're setting boundaries. Boundaries rather are a personal limit that's expressed so that your need will directly be met. Ultimatums, on the other hand, rarely work, and they don't really create healthy dynamic. Boundaries create a healthy dynamic. And it's an action we take for ourselves, regardless of how the other person is going to react. And if the other person changes, because you set a boundary, that's just an additional gain, but that's not the goal to begin with and to end with. So, an important aspect of setting boundaries is allowing others to also have their own limits and boundaries, and respecting and honoring theirs, while you maintain your own. So, when our needs are not being met, or are being actively infringed upon, we cannot point a finger at another person and say, “You have to change!” A better question to ask in this circumstance is, “What do I need to do to make sure that my needs are better met?” 

Waheed  23:56
Now that we have spoken about all of this, let us get to the practical aspects. We need to examine the different kinds of boundaries that we have in our lives, and Dr. Nicola LePera in her book, How to Do the Work, she explains it so beautifully. So, there are three kinds of boundaries that we need to take care of when we set boundaries, or when we want to become our authentic selves and set the proper limits in our lives. We have physical boundaries, we have resource boundaries, and we have mental/emotional boundaries. Amina and I are going to be discussing those right now. 

The first one is physical boundaries. When I talk about my physical boundaries, I think about them as such: If I'm loose in my physical boundaries, it means I am too hyper focused on image. I see my worth and how I look, what my body can do, how others view me physically and sexually. Those are loose physical boundaries. If I have too rigid physical boundaries, I may feel overwhelmed by my body, I want to restrain or confine my emotions and sensations, bodily sensations, even sexual desires. I deny my needs and my desires as an act of repression. And here, we're not saying, “Well go and let loose and hook up with people!” No, but the fact that you're too ashamed and denying yourself to the point of repression, that you are rigid when it comes to everything that is part of your bodily functions, right? Too loose means I'm just so relaxed to the point that I want people to see me, I'm too hyper focused on getting the proper physical validation from others. This is when it comes to physical boundaries. 

Now trying to understand how we can maintain that, we need to honor our body's wants and needs, but how do we do that? It might be through, like, outlining your own personal space, and describing what is your preferred level of physical contact with people. Sometimes people are too much into their physical contact, others are just “no!”, you know, they prefer a distance. It depends on people. So, what is your preferred level of contact? What makes you comfortable? What makes other people comfortable? Maybe you might want to set boundaries around what you will and will not discuss with other people. 

For example, any verbal commentary about your body or about your sexuality, these are certain things that may or may not be comfortable for you, and these are boundaries that you need to set. So, for example, if you are overweight, you might not want people to point that out or to actually discuss that with you, so that is a kind of boundary that you need to set. Or you might be too thin, and that is another thing. Or you don't want people to discuss your same-sex attractions or your gender dysphoria, and that is also another kind of boundary that needs to be set. 

Sometimes, having physical boundaries means that you are aware, and you practice your own self-care needs. For example, the number of hours that you need to sleep. “I need”, let's say, “seven and a half hours every night”, that is a physical boundary, no matter what, I need to get that, this is me taking care of myself and honoring myself, this is a kind of physical boundary. So, if others are going to infringe upon that, then that is not okay. Or like what I eat, this is a kind of physical boundary, or how to move my body, the exercise that I need, all of this feeds my physique, my body. So all of this is physical. So those are all physical boundaries, because you set these boundaries, and you execute them. And those are your boundaries that you set, and people have to honor that. So this is the first kind of physical boundary, try and think about these and where you stand in terms of them, and how you can improve your life based on the examples that we gave and others that you can think about. 

Amina  27:46
So, another type of boundary is the resource boundary, and there's two types of this: On one end of the spectrum, you're just too free with your resources, you're always “on call”, and you're there to help others 24/7. I found myself to be this way, even when I was young, like a teenager. I was getting phone calls from people at all hours of the night, just to do the most random things, like change tires or whatever it was, and then also for family members and you're just always “on call” to help people 24/7. So, when you have few resource boundaries like this in place, the person is endlessly giving and generous to a fault, it makes for unequal and draining exchanges with friends, partners, and family members. And when we give and give, it's typically out of this belief that the more selfless we are, the more love we're going to receive, and that our time should be given away freely, because we're going to get that much in return. Unfortunately, it doesn't really happen like that. And we have this problem saying “no” when we're asked to devote time or energy to things we don't really care about. So, then on the other end of the spectrum, there are people that have too rigid of boundaries around their resources and around their time. So, having a rigid resource boundary around time can be like adhering to a predetermined schedule every single day. So, for example, somebody might go to the gym at the same time every single day, which is great, they're going to the gym, but sometimes they will, you know, ignore family emergencies or other emergencies or work or whatever it is, just because they need to go to the gym at this scheduled time.

Waheed  29:50
Or they might even ignore their internal states, like if they are really not ready physically or mentally to actually do that, “No, I have to do that, because I have to do it”, you know, and it becomes too rigid and inflexible, right? 

Amina  30:05
Right, so it doesn't leave any room to change the schedule at all. And so, ultimately, this lack of flexibility around how we expend our resources can be confining, and it doesn't serve the very needs of the authentic self. 

Waheed  30:21
Absolutely. So when you think about resource boundaries, think about the time, money and efforts that you put in terms of interacting with other people, or in your life. So those are the “resources”, and to what extent your boundaries are set around them. 

So, again, physical boundaries, resource boundaries, and the third kind is the emotional/mental boundaries. These are the boundaries that are often crossed when we talk about families with enmeshed issues that Amina and I spoke about earlier in this episode. Now, if these boundaries are very loose, then there's that feeling that we are responsible for the mental and emotional states of people around us. And we have this need inside of us that we need to “save” others and keep everyone happy. And we've spoken about this a lot. It is impossible to always make other people happy. It is very exhausting, as we've been talking about, it's draining eventually, and it never works. Always meeting the needs of other people isn't attainable, and it ultimately results with us neglecting our own needs. When we had an enmeshed family pattern, we always had those loose emotional/mental boundaries, which resulted in what we referred to at the beginning of this episode as “groupthink”: “We don't do this, we do that”, “We don't interact with these people, we interact with those”, “We don't identify with this group or identify with that”, “We are this as a family, we are not that.” Everyone shares the same things, the same activities, same thinking, same emotions, all the time. And that is not okay, because it's conforming, everyone received the message, either directly or indirectly, that “We need to conform, because that's how we belong.” There's also this fear of being ostracized from our own family if we don't comply. We need to take care of other people, their emotional states are our responsibility… This is a very loose emotional/mental boundary. On the other hand, if we want to think about too rigid mental/emotional boundaries, there’s a complete lack of interest in anyone else's worldview. We are stubborn and adamant about our own beliefs, our own emotions, our own mental states, we separate ourselves from other people, and it makes true connection very difficult, even impossible. We keep our guards up, there is no space for the “meeting of the minds and the souls”, that doesn't really happen. We become an ‘island’ on our own. So those are the two opposite sides of the spectrum. 

When we have proper and healthy and flexible mental/emotional boundaries, we tend to realize that, we are separate from other people, our emotions and thoughts being are different from other people's emotions and thoughts and being. We are separate, we allow each other to co-exist, and we respect each other. We're interdependent, rather than codependent or dependent. And we can easily access our own intuitive voice, our conscience, and we can regulate our emotional states, as a result. And that's how we become healthy and balanced. We feel more comfortable sharing our thoughts and opinions and beliefs with other people, and they can do the same with us. It becomes that interdependent relationship. We don't feel compelled to please or to agree with anyone or with everyone all the time, there's a sense of balance, we can say “no” to things that we need to say “no” to, and say “yes” to things that we want to say “yes” to. 

So, those are the three kinds of boundaries. Again, we encourage you to think about your own versions of these boundaries, and how you can execute flexible and healthy boundaries when it comes to all of these three different kinds. 

Amina  34:09
So now we'll get into emotional dumping and oversharing. So emotional oversharing is an issue that comes up a lot in the communities of healing and recovery, because many of us were never allowed to keep things to ourselves, especially if we had intrusive and enmeshed parent figures who modeled oversharing. So, they overshared themselves and they demanded for us to fully disclose what was happening with us. Some shared an overwhelming amount of information when it was inappropriate at our developmental stage, which is known as “emotional incest”. I also find a lot of people in communities where there's a lot of healing and recovery, people can tend to emotionally dump simply for attention, because of low self-esteem, and then it can be seen as an attention-seeking behavior. And sometimes people will even lie about things that have happened just to get someone else to feel bad for them. Or they're not really even particularly affected by a negative experience that has happened, but they share it anyways for the attention, just to get the other to feel bad. 

And I think this happens for many reasons, but it can be simply because a person doesn't know how to connect with another unless they manipulate the situation and try to control the other person. Or it can be to try and get something from the other person, like the attention or to just hang out with them, or to feel sorry for them, give them money, whatever the situation is, people sometimes try and basically “out share” the other person, so they try to have like the saddest story in the room or the saddest life. And it’s sad, because I feel like these people are actually really just hurting for love, and everybody wants to be loved, and everybody wants attention. So then, these people tend to also blame their whole life on something that has happened to them. So, whatever it is, it could be a lame family situation, it could be abuse, all these things that are very real, but then they blame everything in their life based on these things, rather than working through it and trying to move past it and live with it, and grow from these situations. It’s kind of like sitting in a pity pot and then inviting others into this pity pot with them, instead of trying to uplift others, we bring others down. And it's kind of this way to make people stay around them, because how are you supposed to leave somebody in need, right? Especially if you're codependent, you're going to want to get into that hole with this person and help them get out. But the other person typically just wants to stay in that hole, because they think that's the only way that somebody will hang out with them, by using these tactics. 

And I speak with a lot of people that really put their loneliness on others. So, because they're lonely, they make you feel bad and want you to constantly hang out with them or talk to them or respond to their messages constantly, because they're lonely, and how do you leave a lonely person in need, right? But the thing is, these aren't problems for us to fix, they’re not anyone’s responsibility to fix, it's just your own to fix, right? Because this all creates a fake relationship, it creates a foundation that should be built on trust, but this foundation is just built on the instability and manipulation and dishonesty and lies. So you might get this pseudo-friendship from it, but it's not rewarding. 

Waheed  38:26
Absolutely. So when we talk about emotional dumping and oversharing, this also involves a boundary, because what we are talking about here is a boundary around our internal world. Allow yourself moments of quiet in conversations that you have with other people, without rushing to fill the silence with our own stream of thoughts. There are things that we can decide to keep private and not share with people. When we have proper boundaries in place, we have a choice about when we want to share certain things, and to whom we direct our emotional energy. Choice is very important here. It's you understanding that your thoughts and feelings and beliefs are yours only, and you can decide if you want to share them with other people, or with particular people, or everyone or no one. When we lack or have very loose mental and emotional and resource boundaries, there is this emotional dumping, where we spill our own emotional issues onto the other person, without being empathetic to their emotional state, and I see this happening all the time, like people just want to dump and dump without even realizing that the other person might actually be in a severely deprived emotional state, or he/she might be depressed or burned out, but they do it anyway. 

Some people call it venting, and it's very important now to differentiate between venting and emotional dumping. Venting has positive associations, it revolves around one particular topic, it helps you release your stress, and it's geared towards a productive outcome, because you want to overcome that so that you can move forward. You do it with a safe person, or maybe you do it in a journal, you vent, and then you move on, and the other person moves on. Emotional dumping, on the other hand, means that I am going to air all of my negative frustrations, I'm going to be very circular in my logic, I'm going to be circulating over the same idea over and over again, and it becomes very obsessive. It is a kind of emotional addiction, as we've spoken about previously, where we are just addicted to that high of emotional dumping, because I just want to release that stress, and it becomes a vicious cycle, because it fuels itself. That heightened emotional state reinforces the behavior, even when the behavior is not reinforced by others. I just want to dump because I need that high. 

It is important, it's a human instinct, and it is part of connection to actually reach out to others, ask for help and guidance and to vent. And that is okay. But emotional dumping is not about reaching out for help. It is that obsessive coping strategy that leaves no room for anyone else's needs, and there is no guidance. No matter what we do, I don't care, I just want to dump my emotions. And I'm sure that people listening can identify some people in their lives who actually do that. I personally had a lot of people who came to me and were emotional dumping all the time, and it drained me so much that I burned out. And I had to learn the hard way. And, now, I'm learning to differentiate between what constitutes venting, and if people really want to vent and move on, versus what is emotional dumping. And I'm starting to set boundaries with people that I know who are emotionally dumping, because that is not helpful. So, this is important to talk about. 

Again, emotional dumping has been a coping strategy that we may have learned as children growing up, and we associated with that as adults. And it is a lack of boundary at the end of the day, right? We have loose mental or emotional boundaries, being the people who dump on others. And even the people receiving this emotional dumping, if they find themselves regularly being on the receiving end of emotional dumping, they don't have sufficient boundaries, and they need to set proper boundaries. So that is something that we wanted to emphasize here, because it's part of boundary setting. 

Amina  42:36
Yeah, so me and my mom were both pretty codependent. With regards to this emotional dumping - now what we do, because we're constantly trying to fix everything - sometimes it will be really annoying, because I'll be just venting to her, and she will automatically want to control and fix everything. And so then, it's the other way around too, when she's talking about something just venting, I’ll want to control and fix it. So, what we do now is we just ask in the very beginning, like if I start talking, my mom just asks me, “Are you just venting, or do you want help with something? Do you want me to problem solve this for you?” 

Waheed  43:21
Amen! Yeah, basically, this is what I do nowadays with a lot of friends. When they come, you know, we talk and like share problems and whatever. The first thing that I ask after they finish talking, “Did you just want to vent and let it out, or would you like us to try to solve the problem or try to maybe brainstorm solutions?” And that makes a huge difference. And I do too, I do that with friends. Like when I call them and I just want to vent, I'd be like, “Please hear me out, please don't give me any advice, for the love of God!” And sometimes I'm like, “Yeah, well, I could use your advice, if you don't mind!” 

Amina  43:58
Yeah! I find that sometimes people will just emotionally dump in an attempt to escape an emotion that they don't believe they can bear alone. However, it can be harmful to just unload all that negative emotional energy on another human, especially if it's unwanted or uninvited. So, sometimes, emotional dumping can really feel like a punishment, when someone consistently is just dumping doom and gloom and sad news, even when they learned good news about another person, they'll somehow be able to steer the conversation back to their own problems at home or whatever their issues are. So you know, for example, you could have been telling your friend about the amazing promotion you got or this new job, and then the friend just acknowledges it and then automatically steers the conversation back to them and their sad news and their depression or whatever it is.

So it may feel aggressive and even weaponized, and it's not necessarily intentional. A lot of emotional dumpers don't even know what they're doing. They just feel comfortable doing that, and they feel like they're in the zone, they just are so used to discussing these topics that allow themselves to feel depressed, they're just constantly in this depressive state. So, when they're faced with these unfamiliar positive events coming from other people, they just have to turn the conversation back to the more distressing baseline, because that's where their entire system makes them feel at home. That's what they're used to. And this emotional dumping doesn't have to be just one sided. There can be two people involved where this entire relationship or friendship is built around emotional dumping as a main form of connection. So, an example of mutual emotional dumping is when a relationship revolves around a central shared conflict. So you see this a lot when two people connect because of divorces. So they're constantly just telling each other about every detail of the horrible things about their ex-partners, or sometimes even their current partners, whatever it is. And so, like, the whole relationship is founded off of just sharing negative things about an ex- or current partner. And so the two people are just locked in this emotionally addictive cycle. 

Waheed  46:47
We have basically laid the foundations for boundaries and understanding them. Now, how do we actually go about setting them? So, today, the number three is our lucky number: Three kinds of boundaries, and also, how do we set boundaries? There are three stages to that. The first stage is to define your own boundaries, and then the second stage is to clearly communicate these boundaries, and then the third stage is to maintain the boundaries that you have set. And again, these are beautifully outlined in Dr. Nicole LePera’s book, and Amina and I are going to go through them in detail. 

So the first step is to define your boundaries, meaning, as we've suggested earlier in the episode, examine your life and see where your boundaries are lacking. If you don't have any boundaries, it can be very hard to decide where to set them. And that is totally normal. Again, spend a few days or maybe a week or two, and look over your relationships with your parents, your siblings, relatives, friends, colleagues, your supervisors, etc., and identify and list your most commonly crossed boundaries. And this will kind of give you a roadmap where you can start to set your boundaries. 

So, sometimes we may have the same kind of boundaries across a lot of our relationships, sometimes we may have different boundaries, depending on the people that we're interacting with, that we're not consistent. We may have a lot of variations, or they might actually be the same. So, for example, as Amina mentioned in earlier episodes, some people make certain boundaries with friends only, but they're very loose when it comes to family. Some people might be very loose when it comes to their supervisors or colleagues, but when it comes to family, they're very rigid, and so on. So they say “no” to particular activities with certain people, but they say “yes” to the same activities with other people. Now, if this is because you want to do that, then that's fine, but if it's coming from a place of lacking boundaries, then that is kind of problematic. So, this is basically the first step: Try and find your boundaries, see where they are lacking, just examine them objectively, look at your life and see what is going on in terms of that, just jot down these ideas. 

So how do we go about that? Let's give examples when it comes to physical boundaries, mental and emotional boundaries, and then resource boundaries.

Amina  49:07
Yeah, so for physical boundaries, this can be in relation to the amount of personal space or physical contact that you're most comfortable with having and your preferred timing for this physical contact. So like, for me, I'm a big hugger. I love hugs. And I wasn't always like that, by the way. I had to really train myself to be that way. But I also have to recognize that some other people, they have a physical boundary that they don't like to be hugged all the time. So I can't just go and invade their physical space every time I want a hug, you know, I have to ask first. And so, now I know pretty well, like in my circle of friends and family, who are huggers and who aren't. But you have to just basically ask. And so, if it's for you, you have to tell people, and don't expect others to just know. 

Physical boundaries can also be what kind of verbal comments on your appearance or your sexuality that you're comfortable with. So, I recognize this a lot, because I'm on the other side of the spectrum, where I'm completely open, everybody knows about my sexuality for many years now, and I continue to be that way, everybody knows about my sexuality now, even though I'm not acting on it, I don't hide it at all, even from new people like me. But I recognize that, especially for people in our community, they are not open with their sexuality. So I'm very aware of that, with anonymity and confidentiality and such, and when I hang out with these people in person, I make sure not to even, you know, disclose my sexuality, so that there's no reason to believe that this other person could also possibly have SSA or anything like that. So just respecting other people's boundaries like that. 

Also, physical boundaries can include your overall comfort with just sharing your personal space. So, your house, your apartment, your bedroom, whatever it is, with others, your friends, or family members. And this can be different, so you might be completely okay with your best friend coming and sleeping on your couch, and then you might not really want your mom to come and sleep on your couch. So your boundary with sharing your personal space will change with your friends and family members and colleagues and such. This can also be in relation to sharing your digital passwords, your PINs on your phone and such, which I just don't recommend, but some people love it. Some people feel like they get closer like that. 

And then, some examples of the mental/emotional boundaries, this is your overall comfort with sharing your personal thoughts, opinions and beliefs with others, without changing them to match those of another, or insisting others change their beliefs and their opinions to match yours. I feel like we can all relate to this, where we all encounter people that don't agree with our beliefs and our ideas. And you have to set a boundary in how much you're willing to tolerate, right? And then, another example of a mental/emotional boundary is your ability to choose which personal thoughts, opinions and beliefs you share with others without feeling it necessary to overshare, or attempting to insist that they overshare. I think we kind of do this a lot where we want to hear about what another person is going through, especially if they're going through a tumultuous time, and we kind of pry little bit too much sometimes, when, really, “no” means “no” in any situation. So, you know, as much as we want to know what's going on with another person, if they just don't feel comfortable sharing at that moment, we have to respect that. And, at some point, they might want to share with you later. 

So yeah, I do this a lot, there's a lot of things that I'm very secretive about, especially in my life and such, just in regards to my own personal story in life. And so when I say “no”, my friends know that, hey, that's just a line we don't cross when she says “no, I don't want to share about this.” That's it and end of story. But it took some time to get there, and it took me telling them, “Hey, if I say ‘no’, that's just it, there's nothing else, we just stop asking any more questions at that point.” And now they respect that. 

Waheed  54:15
Aha, lovely, mashaAllah!

Amina  54:17
And then resource boundaries. So this is your ability to exercise choice around where and how your time is spent avoiding any tendencies towards pleasing other people, and you allow others to have the similar choice to choose where and how their time is spent. And it's also your ability to negate personal responsibility for others’ emotions, you're avoiding the tendency to play that role of “fixer” or to make others responsible for your emotions. Everybody is responsible for their own emotions; you are happy because you're happy, you're not happy because of something somebody else is doing, and you're sad because you are choosing to be sad, you're not sad because of something or someone else, what they are doing. And then vice versa, right? And so, resource boundaries also involve your ability to limit the amount of time spent on venting problems on the part of either person, so just limiting the venting from your side, and then also from another person’s slide, to control that boundary for yourself. 

Waheed  55:23
Absolutely. So when you look at all of these kinds of boundaries, and where you stand in terms of them, you can start to see, “Okay, where am I lacking, and where would I like to improve?” Let’s give an example. When we talk about a physical boundary, let's say, you examined your life and you were like, “I'm uncomfortable, and I kind of feel unsafe, when my coworkers/my mother/father/my friend/my uncle, or whoever, consistently make jokes about my appearance. They tease me about that. And I really don't like that. I want to create space for my physical self to feel more comfortable and safe. Therefore, I no longer want to be around people who make those types of jokes.” Maybe you've tried to set those boundaries, or you told them “Okay, please stop, I really don't appreciate you saying these things.” Sometimes that would be your boundary, and they would respect that. Other times, they might not even respect that, and they would make jokes about you setting that boundary. And sometimes you would take it to the next level and be like, “Okay, well, I no longer want to be around those people making those kinds of jokes.” So that would be an example of a physical boundary that you set for yourself. 

An example for mental/emotional boundary is, again, if you feel you are making, let's say, healthy choices in your life, whether it comes to diet, exercise or sleeping an adequate amount of time at night, whatever you are doing to take care of your mental and emotional well-being, and people disapprove of that, whether they're family or friends, or whoever. So, in order to feel more comfortable and safe whether your choices, you no longer care about what they think. You don't want to hear it, or you don't want to argue with those people about your own choices, or you don't want to defend those health choices. This could be a boundary, you want to protect your emotional and mental well-being, that you don't want to engage in any of these arguments. So, the next time they want to open these discussions with you, you’d be like, “Okay, I respect your choices, you respect mine, I'm not going to have that discussion, end of story.” That's one of the examples. 

Resource boundaries: So, for example, a friend calls me, whether it's early in the morning or late at night, when I'm at work, God knows when, and he/she just wants to emotionally dump about their own relationship issues. That makes me uncomfortable, it drains me. What do I do? I will set boundaries and tell them, “I am no longer able to take your calls at particular times, and I will actively choose when I'm going to take part in that emotional dumping”, if I want to do that anymore, right? So those are examples of boundaries that you can set for yourself. 

The first step is to try and see where the boundaries that you want to set for yourself are, and then to try and see how you can actually do that. Write them down, or maybe talk about them with your therapist or support group, and see how you can navigate that territory.

Amina  58:20
Yeah, so kind of like I had said before, and what Waheed just touched on, some people will find it really hard to set boundaries with friends or coworkers, relationships, romantic partners, whoever it is, it's going to be different for you. For me, I have no problem telling my supervisor and my friends “no”, but I have a harder time telling my romantic partners “no” and setting boundaries with them. I’m getting better at that. But I also find it's pretty prevalent that most people have problems setting boundaries with work, because, I mean, it's your supervisor, so you feel like you're jeopardizing your job if you tell this person “no”, that you can't do something. So, I have found that a good way to start saying “no” is when you basically say, “No, I can't do this”, if you're at that point of saying that, great! If you can just say “no”, I can't do this. But you can also say, “I can do this, but this is what's going to cost you.” So, you're basically doing a cost-benefit analysis for your supervisor. 

Because, the thing is, typically, if somebody is asking you to do something, it's taking away your time. So, you have to tell the supervisor, “Yes, I can do this, but this is what it's going to cost you. I can do this for you, but I'm not going to be able to do this other task, because all the time is being taken up.” And so, you're putting the supervisor in a position to decide, he gets to prioritize and say, “Okay, I need you to do this thing, this is actually the priority.” It forces them to prioritize for you, and then the supervisor is left feeling like they're still in control, because they're making the decision. And then you walk away with only doing one of the things, because you simply just don't have enough time to do both. So that's a good way to start setting boundaries in the work area. 

And then, with friends, you can also do a similar cost-benefit analysis. It doesn't have to get so technical like that. But you can tell a friend, “Hey, no, I don't want to go camping this weekend. But I would love to go to coffee with you next weekend”, or “I would love to do something else with you this weekend”, because you're essentially telling them that the cost is, “If you go camping this weekend, I'm not going to go with you. But if you go to coffee or something, then I'll go with you.” And so, the benefit is, we get to hang out together if we do something else, or whatever. 

So this was just kind of an exercise, and I had to do this to really separate who I'm good at setting boundaries with and who I'm not. Just think about the people in your life who you interact with on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis, and ask yourself, “Are these the types of people that I say ‘no’ to?” And then ask yourself “why?” Why do you find it so hard to say “no” to certain individuals, but with others, you’re totally okay with it? What are you getting from these people, by saying “yes” all the time? Are you afraid your friends are going to hate you, or are you afraid that your partner will leave you? Whatever it is. And, generally, in the end, I have always found that people just respect you more if you set boundaries with them, because just like you don't want ambiguous answers, and you don't want to be left in the dark - I know that everybody has walked away from a conversation thinking, “What the heck did this person just say, or what did this person want me to do? I'm still so confused!” People want direct answers. So just like you want direct answers, give other people direct answers in the form of boundaries, because that's really what people thrive on. And just remember that boundaries protect other people too. 

And so I think, as codependents, we just thrive on helping others, and that's our whole goal. If it's hard for you to set boundaries, as a codependent, in the beginning, you can even think about setting boundaries simply as helping other people. So, you're setting boundaries to protect yourself, but sometimes you just have to tell yourself “Hey, I'm going to set this boundary, and it's actually going to help another person too”, because that's how we kind of have to trick ourselves into learning how to set boundaries in the first place, because, as codependents, it's really hard for us to do anything just for ourselves. And then, once you kind of get there, then you just start setting boundaries all over the place, you don't even notice it. 

Waheed  1:03:19
Exactly. 

Amina  1:03:27
We just talked about defining your boundaries and what they are. And so now, step two is to clearly communicate your boundary. So this is how you set yourself up and the relationship or friendship for a successful change. Communicating new boundaries is going to take a lot of practice, but I found that the more clearly you communicate your new boundary, the greater the likelihood of successful change. So, like I said, being direct with people. People love direct. It might sound harsh and aggressive at first, but, normally, people are not taking it that way. You set an intention for yourself, which gives you the space and the opportunity to identify your “why”, you know, why do you want this boundary in place? You're doing this because you want the friendship or the relationship to survive, because you care about your friendship. These are things that you can tell the other person too, while you're telling them what the boundary is, you're telling them the “why”. Because, typically, they're going to be on board with the “why” too, because they want the relationship to survive, or they care about the friendship as well. 

It doesn't always have to be articulated to the other person, because sometimes the other person just gets it. These things don't have to get really technical. So, if you would like to articulate it, then it might sound like “Hey, I really care about you, and I want us to have better communication, and this is my boundary”, whatever it is. So, use objective language as much as possible, focus on facts. If a phone call occurs in the middle of the night while I'm sleeping, then I'm not going to answer it, that's just the way it is. So, you're giving them a clear boundary, there's no room for misinterpretation. Avoid using “you” and try to use “I”, because as soon as you start, you can activate the defensiveness of the person's ego, right? If you're constantly saying, “you”, “You do this, you do that”, “If you call me in the middle of the night, then it's going to go unanswered.” You can always say, “I don't answer calls from anyone that come in the middle of the night.” So it kind of generalize this, so they don't feel attacked. Nobody wants to feel attacked. And then, try to be confident and respectful. As hard as this may be, always remind yourself that you're not doing anything wrong. You're simply respecting yourself, you're respecting the other person, and you're respecting the relationship that you have with the other person. Communicate this in as confident, assertive, and respectful of a manner as possible. At first, it may be difficult, just because it's simply new, and doing anything new is scary. But then, obviously, if you continue to do it, it just becomes easier and easier, and then you won't be scared of it anymore. 

Waheed  1:06:39
100%. There's a very nice template on boundary setting that Nicola LePera highlights in her book, and it can be adapted to fit whatever needs you want to communicate. And, basically, it comes from a lot of communication skills workshops, and you can find them all over, I mean, the message is the same. So, whenever you want to communicate your boundaries, think of it this way: It starts by stating your intention, and then how you understand the other person's behavior, and then talking about their problematic behavior and how that makes you feel, and then finally ending with what you would or would not like to happen, and how you will react to that. 

So, let's take an example. We start with the things that you want to change and your intentions behind them. So you can say, “I am making some changes, so that we can maintain our relationship as I care about you, and I hope you can understand that this is important to me.” So this is my intention, right? “I am making some changes in our relationship, because I care about you.” Now, the second step would be to talk about your understanding of their behavior, and then the problematic behavior that you feel uncomfortable with. So you can say, “I imagine you may be unhappy in your relationship, and you want to be heard”, as a friend who is calling me to vent all the time. “When you constantly call me to vent, I often feel emotionally depleted, and I understand that this is something you might not be aware of.” And then finally, what do you end with? You say the things that you want to change, and then the repercussions if they don't change. So you can say, “I might not be able to always be available when you feel that you want to vent in the future, if you call me with every relationship issue that you are having, if this keeps on happening over and over again, I will not always be available to support you at that exact time.” 

This is proper communication skills, where you state the problem and you offer solutions, and you are setting boundaries in a very respectful manner. And this template can be used with whatever needs’ communication that you want. You state your intentions, “I am making these changes so that so and so, and I hope that you can understand that this is important to me.” And then you move on to the problematic behavior, addressing the problem, “When you do so and so, or you say so and so, I often feel like this”, again, I'm using “I” language, “I understand that this is something you might not be aware of”, and then, finally, the resolution, which is, if this happens again, what you will do in the future. “If this behavior happens again, I will so and so...” in a very respectful manner. 

At the beginning, you might find that this new language feels very weird, and that is very normal. Remember, we've been talking about this over and over in this season, our subconscious mind, which has been used to all of this conditioning, most of us feel uncomfortable with all of this unfamiliar territory. It's very uncertain for us, because it's new. Practice will help you gain comfort with this new communication style. You might want to rehearse these scripts alone, you might want to get used to this communicating alone, maybe ask for help from someone who is close to you, your safe person, and this will help you gain the confidence before you communicate these things to other people. 

Amina  1:10:06
Yeah, definitely. And timing really is key when communicating these boundaries. Because, obviously, you want to have both parties as emotionally settled and neutral as possible, and trying to communicate a new boundary when you're in the middle of a conflict is obviously not going to be helpful. When we're emotionally activated, we're just in no state to receive anything challenging. So if either individual is in any type of conflict, it's going to make things difficult. Deep breathing can also help, Waheed had talked about this in episode 46, it can really help calm any nervous system reaction you may be experiencing and will help you bring your body back to calm. So, you can do this before you talk to the person or during, and then you can also do it after if you're feeling a little charged. 

But don't overthink this, you know, it doesn't have to be technical. So, when you start to think about creating new boundaries, it's helpful to just focus on how you will continue to respond differently in the future, instead of becoming really consumed with how the other person will feel, because we tend to get in this state of mind, even when we're trying to set the boundary for ourselves, we start thinking, “Oh, how's the other person going to react? Is it going to make them sad, is it going to make them mad?” We're just constantly in a state of trying to figure out how the other person is going to feel, and if we're going to hurt them by setting this boundary. So, many boundaries become erased before they're even articulated, right? So, we start envisioning how these boundaries will hurt others or how they fire back and hurt us. So, we start beating ourselves up before we've even communicated the boundary, and we tell ourselves that we're just ungrateful or selfish, we shouldn't be doing this, we should really be helping the other person and letting the other person be. And, so remember the complex trauma patterns and inner child work we talked about, feeling that way prevents us from taking action that would just ultimately help maintain and strengthen our bonds together. 

Waheed  1:12:30
Absolutely. And, sometimes, you might think, “Well, it's not realistic to have an active conversation about the boundary”, and you don't need to always have to place those limits with a conversation. So, for example, you know, if you have a less intimate relationship, maybe like having lunch with a coworker, you just don't feel like having a conversation, but you want to set a limit. It doesn't have to be that huge of a problem, right? So, it just can be a very simple statement, like saying, “I wish I could, but now isn't a good time”, or “I'm not comfortable doing this.” Easy. Or, “This isn't doable for me”, or “Thank you for the offer (or the invite, or whatever that is), though that isn't something that I can do right now.” “I will have to get back to you on that”, that's another statement that you can use. “Unfortunately, I'm not available, best of luck on your search (or on X, Y and Z).” “I would love to say ‘yes’, but unfortunately, I do need to say ‘no’”, that's another statement that we can use. “Thank you for thinking of me, but right now, I'm not able to take anything else on.” These are very important sentences that we can actually use when we want to say “no”, but in a very kind and respectful manner. I know that it's difficult at the beginning, but with more practice, we can get used to this, and it just becomes part of our daily lexicon that we are used to, you know? 

Amina  1:13:56
Yeah, definitely. So, trying to plan ahead and practicing are critical. You can start by communicating boundaries in relationships where the stakes feel kind of low. So, you might not want to just start setting boundaries with the most important people in your life or supervisors, or when you just haven't had a lot of practice, so it could actually sort of negatively impact your life. So, some people will start setting these boundaries professionally, say, for example, it might feel easier to say “no” via an email to a stranger than to a partner or family members. Or setting time boundaries around how much emotional energy one would expend on certain activities, like scrolling through social media, or with certain people. So, start small, practice in a less stressful emotional entanglement, such as having lunch with a coworker. So, if it's just an acquaintance, and they ask you to go to lunch with them, and you don't really ever go to lunch with them, maybe they work in a different team for you, like, there's no real strings attached if you say “no”. So, practice saying “no” with that person if you really don't want to go. Obviously, if you want to go yourself then go. 

And, over time, you're just going to learn that boundary setting has one or two outcomes, it's not complex in any way: The other person is either going to get offended, or they just won't. And it's as simple as that. So, when people are really freaking out and anxious about setting boundaries or telling people “no”, I always just tell people, “Let's go through the list of the worst case scenarios that can possibly happen”, and, typically, they don't end in death. Nothing is life threatening. But it really helps when people just see that, they see, “Okay, you know what? The worst case scenario is, maybe this person doesn't end up liking me. But guess what? I don't like them anyway, either!” So, it doesn't really matter! And, actually, I had to set this boundary pretty recently, because I had a prospect that I was talking to, whatever. And he kept calling and calling, like at some point he had called, like, I counted, it was like 30 times in the span of a couple of hours. And so, I texted him and said, “Okay, like, let me just tell you what's really going on; my heart's not into this, and I don't want to pursue this any further. Probably because I'm pretty queer…” 

Waheed  1:16:58
LOL! Was it a marriage proposal? Girl, spill the T! 

Amina  1:17:06
Yeah, it definitely was! And this poor guy, I felt so bad for him. He like really waited around for me for like a year, just like hoping and praying, right? But at some point, I was just like, okay, you know what, like, maybe my heart was in it before, and maybe I felt like I could do it, but I don't feel like I could do it (now). And so, I have to be upfront with that. And I just gave him the whole “It's not you, it's really me”, because it really is, you know, he's like a great guy. Like, if there are any females out there that want a good reference, man, he's a great guy! So, I was just clear, and I said, “Okay, you know, my heart's not in it, and I can't do this, and I don't want to string you along, and you don't deserve that.” But kept saying, “Hey, can I talk about this? I want to talk to you about it.” And I was texting him while he keeps calling, and I said, “No, I don't want to talk with you over the phone about this right now. I just don't feel like I can.” And I said, “I know this isn't fair to you that I'm just texting you like this. I know it's not fair to you, but this is what I can do right now. This is my limit.” And then when I was ready, like a couple of days later, I texted him and said, “Hey, you wanted a closure. If you need a phone call for closure, I can give you that, but I'm not going to meet you in person for closure.” Like I set clear boundaries, like this was my limit. This is what I'm willing to do. And yeah, so it can just happen at any time, and you just get so used to it, like I was very okay with doing that, it wasn't hard for me in any way to just say what I wanted. You just get used to it. 

Waheed  1:18:57
I hope that he recovers after this heartbreak, inshaAllah. 

Amina  1:19:00
Oh my God., yeah, for real… 

Waheed  1:19:03
What a heartbreaker you are. Girl, that ain't okay! Poor man… Anyway, we love you Amina. Anyhoo.  

Amina  1:19:17
There’s a lesson in there, just remember, I mean, I’m a heartbreaker, but there's a lesson in there! 

Waheed  1:19:22
There's a tiny lesson in there, just try and find that one! But yeah. Anyway… Basically what you said is very important at the end of the day. Practice is important, and sometimes we have to get out of our comfort zones to just set those boundaries and communicate them. So, definitely. And another very important point when we communicate our boundaries is to actually be open to compromise, because we are also honoring other people's boundaries, at the same time. It has to be both ways. So, we might find ourselves in a place where we need to modify the initial request that we tried to communicate. Now, it doesn't mean we are being pushovers again, and they are stressing us or pushing us, and kind of like trespassing and overstepping particular boundaries. That's not the case. Know what is negotiable for you and what is not negotiable for you. This is important. So, for example, you may be open to using your resources, whether it's time or energy in supporting someone emotionally, but you might not be open to compromise around your particular physical boundaries. And that is okay. And you know, sometimes at the beginning, we may find ourselves that we are setting very rigid boundaries, and that is not flexible, so we kind of need to tune it down a little bit. And that is okay, because that comes with time and practice, knowing how to navigate that territory. 

When we realize that, at the beginning, it's very uncomfortable, but in the future, it will save us a lot of anger and resentment, it kind of puts things in perspective. When we set boundaries in relationships, whatever these relationships are, things will start to change, and they may look like things that we've never experienced before, right? Relationships evolve. But honestly, when healthy boundaries are set in place, relationships will become – and here we're talking about the proper relationships - they will become stronger and more honest, and ultimately, more sustainable. And boundaries are very important in order to have healthy relationships. Think of them as an act of service to yourself and to other people who are part of these relationships. Just to put things in perspective. 

Amina  1:21:37
Yeah, and boundaries don't have to be some big grand event, it can really just be the simplest of things, and it becomes part of your daily life, you'll notice that it really does. Because it doesn't even have to be in relation to activities, it can just be, you know, “No, I don't want to talk about this”, or “No, I don't want to do this”, whatever it is. And I think an important thing to remember is, just remember that, if you're setting boundaries with somebody, and they're a healthy individual, they also could be setting boundaries with you. So, just understand that, recognize that and be okay with that. So, you know, if somebody wants to go camping, and you don't want to go with them, you tell them “No, I don't want to go.” And if they go, regardless, let them go, because that is their boundary, they want to go camping, and they want to go and hang out with your group of friends as well. So let them do that, and don't internalize that as like, “Oh my God, the world is ending and we're not friends anymore, and they've left me, they've abandoned me”, like don't make it all about you, they are simply also setting a boundary with you. And that's perfectly okay. Like I said before, you know, you're not responsible for their happiness and emotions, and they are also not responsible for your happiness and emotions. 

Waheed  1:23:17
100% 

1:23:25
After the first step of setting that boundary, and then the second step of communicating that boundary, the third step would be to maintain the new boundary. So this comes immediately after we have communicated that boundary, like starting with the initial reaction that we feel immediately after saying what we have to say, and moving on. So, once we have set that boundary and communicated that, it is very important to remain present and calm, breathe, and resist the urge to defend or over explain yourself. And this hits home for me personally, because I try to defend myself when I make the boundary, and just make the other person feel comfortable and to just make sure that I haven't hurt their feelings, because this is coming from that place of codependence. Regardless of the reaction that you receive from the other person, resist the urge to do that. Be assertive, of course, be decent and respectful and courteous. But don't over explain yourself or defend yourself. You have set that boundary, live with it. 

You may feel stress as a result of someone's reaction, or the reaction from your workplace or your family. Realize that when you set healthy boundaries, people are going to defend themselves, or they're going to act out, and they're going to be angry, or God knows what's going to happen. But as Amina was saying, you know, if you think of the worst things that can happen, it's not going to be worse than that. And probably, it's not going to be as bad as you think. But in case that even happens, then it's OK to feel stressed, and it's OK to feel anxious when things backfire. But it is important that once you set a boundary, that you actually keep it set, and you take care of yourself in the process, because you owe that to yourself. 

Amina  1:25:13
So, yeah, when we begin to change how we show up in relationships, it's helpful to remember that, obviously, the longer the relationship has existed, then the more expectations have been enacted and solidified over time. So, it can be helpful to accept the fact that the other person's expectations of you might be disrupted, or sometimes abruptly from their perspective. So on top of this, the receiver of the new boundary, especially one with abandonment wounds, that a lot of us have, will likely react defensively or even offensively. So, yeah, we might react this way, and then they also might react this way. So you might react this way when somebody's setting a boundary with you, and then vice versa. And then, obviously, too, a lot of people are just used to the boundaries that we have with each other, or the lack of, right? Obviously, if you have a long standing relationship or friendship with somebody, and then you just come in, and all of a sudden you implement this new boundary, and you change things, it's going to take a little bit for the other person to catch up. And they might also just be confused, and they're just not used to this version of you. But everything is learned. And if the relationship or the friendship is important to them, as it probably is, they will get used to it, because they still want you in their life. It doesn't really become a problem. 

For many of us, this is the hardest part, we're not sure we have the right to set these boundaries, especially with people that we've known for so long, right? We may feel that it's just selfish or rude or mean to do so. And then we find ourselves feeling bad about any reaction by the other person, kind of like what Waheed was talking about, when you're setting boundaries, you're trying to explain yourself, and why you're setting the boundary, and you're just still constantly trying to figure out what the other person is going to feel. And this is for a lot of people who just have these core attachment wounds around abandonment, because we're just afraid of other people not wanting anything to do with us after we set these boundaries, from learned childhood experiences, or whatever it is. And your implementation or your explanation of this boundary, it may open those wounds around abandonment. So they may feel wounded, and they may even lash out in response. And then you might open up the wounds in yourself. 

Waheed  1:27:49
Exactly, yeah, absolutely. Beautifully said. So, if you think about it, when we set boundaries, and we try to maintain them, there's an inner voice, and then there's the voice of other people. So the inner voice inside of us that makes us feel bad, or says “Oh, you're being selfish, you're rude, you're mean, oh my God, look at them, they're hurt because of you”, and bla bla bla. No, this is important. Focus on your healing, and the positives that you imagine will come up because of this boundary. We need to learn how to navigate that voice inside of us. And in addition to that, the people's reactions, as we said, some people might be confused, some people might push back, some people may make these snarky comments like, “Oh, you've changed! Look at you!” or “We know that you set boundaries, but then eventually you break them”, or whatever other comments that they may have. Some people might actually be enraged, and they might actually fight you because of these boundaries, you might feel afraid, there might be a lot of doubt. And there is this pull to go back to the familiar, right? There's that urge. 

Once you've decided to honor and respect your boundaries, and to keep the promises that you have made for yourself, don't look back. There is no going back to the old patterns, if you truly need and want to change. If you're honest with yourself, seek help from Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala and your support system, and please don't look back. I know the urge is very strong, especially when we are at the beginning of the healing and recovery journey, but please try to keep those promises. If you put up a boundary and then you take it down when someone freaks out, all you are doing is reinforcing that person's ability to walk all over you all over again, and all over your limits with their behaviors, and just crap all over the place. It's a classic example of negative reinforcement. They will continue their behavior anytime they're faced with any opposition in your relationship, and they will know how to manipulate you into dropping those boundaries. People will think that if I scream and yell enough, everything will go back to normal. Well, not anymore. You owe that to yourself. Don't do that. 

And, again, remember when we talked about inner child work back in episode 47. Use that inner child work, reassure that inner child that when you change the boundaries, you are going to protect your child, you're going to handle the adult emotions that come with that. And you're going to handle other people and their reactions, as well as the responsibilities that come with all of these new boundaries. You owe it to yourself to do that, make sure that your inner child knows that this is to nurture and to love them, because part of that inner critic is going to be that inner parent, and it's going to be that insecure inner child who wants to go back to the familiar. When you do that inner child work, it kind of soothes them, and you reassure them, you comfort them, so there won't be that sense of discomfort that is very strong anymore, right? You set the expectation that your inner child does not have to do the work for your adult anymore, that that child can rest, and your inner adult, or your authentic self, can actually be there doing the work. 

Amina  1:30:53
Yeah, the inner child work is really important, because when you change the boundaries, you're changing the energy of the relationship by setting new rules. So this is obviously going to be like the snowball effect, it's going to cause a chain reaction. So when you change the boundaries, you explain to your inner child that things might feel different. And people might start to react differently. And encourage your inner child to understand this is not because of them, and that they've done nothing wrong. Explain to your inner child that by changing these rules into healthier ones, the other person's inner child also might feel a reaction. And that's going to be different from what they're used to. So it's important just to not take any of it personally, and by taking a moment to explain this to your inner child, it frees them to do what they're meant to do as children, to play, laugh, create, love, and be who they are. 

So no one likes when boundaries are changed, but it's important and healthy, obviously, for everyone to have these boundaries, because they keep us safe, they protect us and keep us within our power. And it shows that we have self-respect, and then we also have respect for others. And it helps us to own who we are. And when you change the boundaries, there's no doubt that others will react negatively, you have changed this entire pattern that they're used to without telling them. Obviously, you're telling them now, but in the past, you haven't told them, and now you're just shaking things up and changing the pattern. So even if you attempt to explain, most likely they will not hear you, or you would have had this boundary earlier, right? So changing the boundary can trigger their ego to react. So just know that this is their ego, this is their set of issues to deal with. This is not your responsibility to deal with. You’re not responsible for someone else's ego and for someone else's reaction, just like they're not responsible for yours. 

Waheed  1:32:58
Absolutely. And remember that all of these reactions and emotions and the anxiety that is involved with setting boundaries, all of this is normal. And change evokes all of these reactions and emotions. So, creating boundaries is one of the hardest work that we need to do on our healing journey. And sometimes we are cornered to actually take that first step, and it is very difficult. It is probably one of the most difficult, and it's also one of the most important things, to reconnect with our true adult, that authentic self, that fitrah, and to reconnect with our needs, and to honor and respect ourselves and to honor and respect other people, particularly the ones that we love. This is what doing the work is all about, to make space to allow each of us to be seen and heard and authentically expressed in the ways that are proper and right. 

Amina  1:33:55
So yeah, when setting boundaries, what you're giving them is a choice, you're simply allowing them to choose to continue engaging in that behavior and be faced with a boundary, which is often like the removal of your presence or support, or they can choose to respect your boundary and continue their relationship with you in a new way. And that is what is empowering about setting boundaries, you're giving them a choice too. I personally have found that, if someone is abusive or manipulative and has simply been using you to solve their problems all the time, but they've taken little or no time to care about yours, they will simply find somebody else to be their new listener, it wasn't actually even really particular to you. And as much as that hurts, just knowing that you're kind of replaceable, it hurts to be left by that person, but it also hurts a lot more to stay in it. Because, really, you want a mutually giving friendship, where both sides are understanding and they're for each other, not one sided. And the friends or family members that understand you won’t always be picking up the phone at all hours, and they still maintain a relationship with you, that means they actually respect the boundary, and they also care for you too. They want to give you the same thing. They want to always be there for you. 

Waheed  1:35:22
Right. Yep, absolutely. And then, again, remember that expectations have to go both ways, right? You know, when we do the work, and we set boundaries, and we start to learn our own internal narratives, and all of that, it's all about our own expectations. But then we need to also acknowledge what other people are capable and are not capable of. We need to accept that a lot of people will not change, at least not right away, and some people may never change. And that's up to them, if they want to do the work or not. It can sometimes be helpful to use your past experiences to kind of form your expectations around particular people's responses to the boundaries that you're setting. So, for example, if you have a mother who has historically been apologetically intrusive, and she doesn't want boundaries, and she's always all over your things and your life, you might choose to engage in some level of compromise, because fighting fire with fire, or just building walls around someone who has never learned to navigate walls is not going to be easy. It's likely that that particular mother is going to be doing what she has been always used to. So, in this case, you need to determine what are your absolute non-negotiable limits, and then use them as “no compromise” areas for yourself. But there are certain areas where you can be flexible with. And you may also find it helpful to shift your internal expectation that others are going to change more completely, and just be flexible when it comes to seeing other people and what are their limitations and their strengths and their abilities, and where they are in their own healing and recovery journeys, so to speak. So just be flexible in terms of that, and be open minded as well. 

Amina  1:37:15
Yeah. And in terms of flexibility with certain friends and colleagues, after you give them so many chances to respect the boundary, and they're just completely inflexible and not respecting your boundaries time and time again, then you might have reached a point where you just have to cut ties completely. And like I said, it might hurt, but it also hurts way more to stay. So, as we embark on this journey of healing and recovery and gain more understanding of our own repeated patterns, we similarly begin to see others from a bird's eye view. So, when we do so, we often find that compassion emerges for other people in our relationships, even those with whom we may have chosen to just completely cut contact, and so, much of their behaviors have to do with their own complex trauma, neglect and wounds of abandonment. So instead of cruelty, we see pain and fear. But remember, it's simply not your responsibility to keep anyone sober or fixed if they don't want it for themselves. So they have to want it, and they have to be willing to work for it. 

Waheed  1:38:31
And with this, we have come to the end of today's episode. Today, we talked about what boundaries are, how to say “no”, the different kinds of boundaries, and how to set boundaries at a practical level. In the next episode, we will take this discussion further and talk about how to set boundaries with difficult people, particularly those who can be classified as “pathological narcissists”, or people who are controlling, abusive and manipulative, particularly if they may be our parents or family members, friends, supervisors and bosses or colleagues at work, and so on, what to watch out for, how to avoid their manipulative tactics, and how to overcome these problems, inshaAllah. Amina and I look forward to talking to you in our sixth and final episode of this series. Until next time, stay safe and healthy, this has been Amina and Waheed Jensen in “A Way Beyond the Rainbow”, assalamu alaikom wa rahmatullahi ta’ala wa barakatuh.