This is part II of a 2-episode series with Sh. Mustafa Umar addressing Shar'i perspectives related to gender nonconformity, gender dysphoria and transgenderism.
Is gender transitioning unconditionally prohibited in Islam or are there particular exceptions? How do we, as families and communities, deal with individuals undergoing gender transitioning? How do we deal with individuals who identify as gender non-binary or gender-fluid, particularly if they are Muslim? How do we deal with situations where we have to "declare our preferred pronouns"? These and other relevant questions are explored in this episode.
This is part II of a 2-episode series with Sh. Mustafa Umar addressing Shar'i perspectives related to gender nonconformity, gender dysphoria and transgenderism.
Is gender transitioning unconditionally prohibited in Islam or are there particular exceptions? How do we, as families and communities, deal with individuals undergoing gender transitioning? How do we deal with individuals who identify as gender non-binary or gender-fluid, particularly if they are Muslim? How do we deal with situations where we have to "declare our preferred pronouns"? These and other relevant questions are explored in this episode.
Waheed 00:39
Assalamu alaikom warahmatullahi ta’ala wabaraktuh, and welcome to another episode of “A Way Beyond the Rainbow”, this podcast series dedicated to Muslims experiencing same-sex attractions who want to live a life true to Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala and Islam. I'm your host, Waheed Jensen, and thank you for joining me in today's episode. In this episode, we continue our discussion with Sh. Mustafa Umar in part two of our series on the fiqhi as well as the Shar’i perspectives with regards to gender nonconformity, gender dysphoria and transgenderism. As you guys remember, in the previous episode, we spoke about the topics of gender roles within Islam, as well as imitating the opposite gender, and other relevant topics. And in today's episode, inshaAllah, we will be talking about the permissibility or the prohibition of gender transitioning, as well as how to deal with individuals who identify as non-binary or gender fluid, workplace issues as well as situations where we have to declare our pronouns, and similar situations as well. So let's get started, inshaAllah.
01:50
And now we move into the next topic which is about transitioning. So the question is, is transitioning – and by transitioning, we mean chemically and/or surgically, so taking hormones and then eventually either stopping at that point or taking it to the next level, which is, you know, surgical reassignment - is this process of transitioning to the opposite sex 100% prohibited without exceptions in Islam? Or are there certain situations where people are allowed to transition? Why or why not?
Sh. Mustafa 02:21
Okay, so when it comes to sex change surgery, there's a difference between someone who is called al-khunthā, or al-khunthā al-mushkil, basically, you know, a person who is intersex, or hermaphrodite, and they're anatomically ambiguous - they have certain female physical characteristics, biological characteristics, and they have certain male characteristics. So that person is in a completely different category, because it's not just something that's in their mind, they, physically, have male and female characteristics. So a sex change surgery for someone who falls into that category, there definitely is leeway for that. And that's something that scholars have spoken about at length, and they're pretty much in agreement, that it is considered to be some type of deformity or some type of change that they were born with. So when it comes to something like that, yes, sex change surgery is allowed, because there's a physical difference in their body, and that's trying to be corrected back to what it originally was.
When we're talking about transgender, we're talking about someone who is 100% biologically male, or 100% biologically female, but in their mind, they think that they're the opposite gender, and they want to try to transition or change into the opposite gender that they’re biologically not. So that is something that is forbidden. That is something that is actually 100% forbidden, and I'll explain why. First of all, there are two main reasons: number one is that a sex change doesn't actually change your sex, right? These are just cosmetic alterations. So, you know, I've spoken with people who do the surgery, I've spoken with endocrinologists who do the hormone replacement therapy and all of that. And what ends up happening is that if someone starts to take hormones to “transition”, as they say, or they undergo a surgery, if you look at it on a bare bones level, yes, you take hormones, you can start growing breasts. So you start physically changing. But at the same time, you are going to be on those hormones for life. The moment you stop taking those hormones, the breasts start going away, you start to revert. Even after a surgery, you're pretty much going to be on hormones for the rest of your life. And when you stop, you're going to start reverting back to what you originally were, because it's biologically ingrained in you.
So the idea is that a sex change doesn't really change your sex, there are cosmetic alterations that you're doing to your body, it's almost in the category of cross dressing, in the sense that you're trying to look like something different, but you're not. So let's say a male who wants to “transition” to a female, when they chop off their penis, they're castrated, and what's going to happen is, they're going to utilize the nerve endings on the edge of the penis to construct a vagina, so that the person can feel, you know, sexual stimulation when they're engaging in the new lifestyle that they want to lead, and they can reach orgasm and all of those things. What's happening is that you've not actually turned a penis into a vagina, what you've done is you've superficially tried to do that in order to achieve certain objectives that you're trying to achieve. And vice versa, which is much more difficult, to try to turn a vagina into a penis and use the nerve endings and the place where sexual stimulation occurs and bring that into the artificially created penis that's there and all of that stuff. And I’ve had a surgeon give me a whole presentation about how this works and all that - not a Muslim one, but a very trans affirming or whatever the term is. But I had to sit through that presentation anyways. And this is like one of the top doctors at Cedars Sinai Medical Center who probably does more “gender reassignment surgeries” than anyone else does probably in the world, and they insist that they call them gender affirmation surgeries, and said, “You know, you're not allowed to use the term ‘reassignment’, it’s affirmation.” So I'm like, “I really don't care.” When it came my turn to get up and speak, I'm like, “I'm gonna call it what it is, you know, you can't force me to adopt your terminology.” But anyways, I'm just explaining why I know this.
But yeah, so this idea of, there's two reasons why it's not allowed. The reason why it's not allowed, number one is, you're not actually changing your sex, you cannot change your sex, it's not something that's possible. So this idea of getting a surgery done or getting hormone replacement therapy, this just changes the outward form of your body, that doesn't mean you're actually changing your sex, number one. So the concept of changing it, it's not allowed, because it's not even possible to do that. Number two, there's this principle in Islamic law, which basically says that if there's a darura/ضرورة, if there is a necessity, then something that is unlawful/haram can actually become halal. So there's a well-known principle among all scholars الضرورات تبيح المحظورات - which means anything where there's some need, it can turn the haram into the halal. So, technically, you almost think like, “Whoa! That can make anything that's a haram into halal!” Like you're not allowed to eat pork, but if you're in the middle of the desert, and you're starving, and you're about to die, you're allowed to eat pork, you're allowed to drink alcohol in order to save your life. And that's clear cut in the Qur’an.
So then the question becomes, well, what about gender dysphoria, someone who has a very strong case of gender dysphoria, and they're getting to the point of being suicidal, why can't we make an exception for them as well? So there's two reasons. It's an understandable argument, a very understandable argument.
Waheed 09:14
Because I actually wanted to ask you about this, I've met some people who have tried therapy, they went to support groups, they tried all sorts of self-discipline, spirituality and prayer and du’aa, they tried everything to no avail. And they're like, “I'm suicidal. I'm at risk of self-harm, and I'm going to kill myself. Would I be allowed to transition in this case?” So, according to your answer, الضرورة لا تبيح المحظور (the urgency/need does not make the impermissible permissible) in this case?
Sh. Mustafa 09:40
So there's two parts to it. Let's say the person is not suicidal, and then I'll answer the suicidal one. So let's say they're not suicidal, but it's very distressing to them. So let's say someone comes to us and says, “You know what, I want to commit zina (adultery/fornication). I want to engage in adultery, and it's like, really, you know, getting me down.” Can we use the same principle and say, “Well, you know, it's extremely difficult for this teenager who is surrounded by all these girls on a college campus, and he just can't control himself, can we go ahead and say that he's suffering so much mentally internally that we should just go ahead and say he's allowed to go ahead and have zina, you know, commit fornication and just have all these girlfriends or whatever?” We wouldn't do that, we don't take that approach, right? No matter how much the guy is suffering.
Let's take alcohol, for example, as we mentioned before. Someone is an alcoholic, someone is drinking, and they're like, “I can't, it's so difficult for me to go cold turkey, I can't get out of this”, instead of saying, “Hey, you need a rehab program, you need to slowly start recovering, and you need to keep on trying”, rather than do that we say, “Go ahead and drink more and more, because this is what you need.” Right? We don't take that approach. So that's an example. So the first answer is, no, it isn't allowed, because even though there's distress internally, you should always go with the other solutions, and that is to help the person in the right direction, rather than in the wrong direction to kind of quell the urges that they have.
Now, let's say the person is suicidal, okay? In theory, if we can prove that their suicidal tendency or their suicidal ideation would go away if they got the transformation, if they got the surgery done, or if they got the hormones done, or even, let's just say someone says, “I need to cross dress three days out of the week, and if I do that, I will not kill myself. There's no other solution for me, if I can do this”, and we had a way to measure that empirically, this is solid evidence that this person is going to kill themselves, and if they do this solution that they're presenting to us, it would stop the suicide ideation, then the answer is yes, it would be lawful for them, we would apply this principle. And the principle would be like, let's say the person says, “You know what, I need to dress up like a woman once a week, I don't care, leave me at home, I'm not going to go out in society, I'm not going to harm anyone else, okay? I'm going to stay inside my house, I'm going to look at myself in the mirror, I'm going to play some video games, I'm not going to go out, I'm not harming anyone else. But just give me like a license one day a week to like dress up like a woman, and I'm gonna stay inside my house, I won't go to the masjid that day, and everything's gonna be fine, I'll get rid of my suicidal tendencies.” The answer is yes; we would give the fatwa saying that “You are in a case where your life is in danger to protect your life.” There's this idea of preservation of life in the maqasid of the Shari’a (the overriding principles of Shari’a), yes, in order to protect your life, we give you the license to do that.
The reason why I think that we shouldn't give the license to do that when it comes to people who have gender dysphoria, and they're saying that “Well I'm getting to the point of being suicidal”, is because the data on people who have transitioned, their suicide rate increases significantly. You know, I've seen studies putting it at somewhere between 500 to 1,000% increase in suicidality, i.e. suicide ideation and actually committing suicide. And we don't even have the data on what exactly happened because they committed suicide, we can't go back and ask them “Well, you transitioned, you actually went and did the surgery, why did you kill yourself?” Well, we don't even have the data on that, because they killed themselves. So we can't even get the understanding. So based on evidence, there's no solid evidence to show that somehow the suicide ideation is going to decrease. In fact, there's conflicting studies, but some of the studies shows that it actually increases.
Now, that brings us to another principle, and the principle is another maxim in Islamic law, which is الضرر لا يزال بالضرر - you do not try to remove the darar, the harm, by means of another harm. And that's kind of like what this transitioning surgery or transitioning hormones seems to be doing. Because once you get on hormones, and once you do the surgery, there's several people who are trying to de-transition and the effects that it has on you is massive. I mean, the amount of harm that you've done to your body, now to undo it, is extremely difficult. So where do we draw the line? Or where do we evaluate, on an objective level, that this person is not doing more harm to themselves and it's not actually going to solve the original harm that they were going to have, rather than trying some type of therapy or whatever? I know this argument, I've heard it several times, that says, “You know what, I've tried therapy, I'm trying this and it's not working. And I'm at the point of suicide, I feel like I want to commit suicide. Let me do this to solve the problem.” Well, it comes back down to: Have you really been led in the right direction to the right therapy? Have we given the right interventions? Have we not tried something else, like holistic health?
Maybe in a particular [case], on an individual level, maybe there's an individual who can get a fatwa saying, in your particular case, you should be given the fatwa that your situation is so bad, that you go ahead and do what you need to do to protect your life, and then whatever harm is going to result from it, it's better than you dying. But to give a general fatwa to a general rule across the board and say, “Yes, everyone can go ahead and decide on their own” - and by “on their own” I mean in consultation with their, in my opinion, messed-up-in-the-head psychologist who is going to just give them the affirmation anyways, on very flimsy grounds. That fatwa would be so badly abused, it just puts everything in the desire of the shahawat (desires) of the individual and the psychologist who is also following shahawat, in my opinion, following their desires, because they have a model that's kind of jacked up anyways.
So that would be why I would say the general fatwa should be that it’s 100% unlawful, and it doesn't apply. But on an individual level, I think that individuals can be seen by someone who's well trained, someone who's a specialist, and, okay, you've been through all of this, you've tried so many things, you as an individual can get an individual personalized fatwa, that yes, you can go ahead and do some of these things on an individual level, but not as a general fatwa.
Waheed 17:28
So the last part of the episode is about, culturally, how do we deal with pronouns and declaring pronouns and so on, and this is something that is becoming more and more popular nowadays. So how do we, as Muslims, deal with contexts in our schools, or in our workplace or with friends, where we are placed in a situation where we have to declare our pronouns, or use particular pronouns that others want us to use, that are clearly not in line with their biology? So if a man wants to be identified as a woman, using “her” or “she” or “they”, for example, the very general one. So, would this constitute an acceptance of the narrative that we are trying to, I wouldn't say fight, but rather to kind of dissect? In this case, what if someone asks to be addressed with those particular pronouns and makes it imperative upon us that we need to address them with these pronouns that are contrary to their biological sex? How do we behave, as Muslims, with regards to these things?
Sh. Mustafa 18:36
Yes, I think there is theory and then there's practice. So let me define the theory. So the theory, first of all, if you're dealing with someone who insists that they are a particular way, so someone says, “You know what, I don't care if I look like a biological male, I am defining myself as being a female”, or “I'm defining myself as being agender, and you need to address me as ze or tree or whatever pronoun I have defined myself as”, then it comes back down to this: On an individual level, when you're speaking with that person, there is some leniency, I think, for you to go ahead and say, “You know what, I'll address you with the pronoun that you want, even though I don't believe that pronoun.” And the reason why is, for example, the Prophet (PBUH), when he used to address people, or when he used to meet certain leaders, or when he addressed a king or something like that, or even the Sahabah (companions) later on, you walk up to someone, and you call them a king, and you're like, “You know, King, here's a letter to you”, or whatever it is, they're not your king. They're a king of somebody else, right? So you're accepting their definition of a king over someone else in the way that they perceive themselves, you're not necessarily adopting that view that “you are a king to me” [but rather] “you're a king to another group of people.”
So when you address someone with whatever pronoun they want, on an individual level, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're accepting that pronoun for your reality. You're not necessarily accepting their reality by simply using the pronoun that they want you to use. So, for example, if someone comes to me and says, “You know what, my name is Jane from now on”, and he was John, and he's like, “I now identify as Jane.” So if I'm having a conversation, and I'm like, “Listen, you know, let me tell you a little bit about Islam. The first pillar of Islam is this, and, you know, Islam teaches us beautiful values, and you should really read the Qur’an.” Should I say, “Hey, John, you should really read the Qur’an?” Or should I just say, “Hey, listen, Jane, you know, you should really read the Qur’an, and I think you should really consider Islam, a lot of people don't understand it.” You're trying to talk to the person, I think it's okay to address the person the way they want to be addressed on an individual level.
However, on the collective level, it does become very problematic when you continue using the pronoun or continue using the way the person wants to identify with everyone else, because now what happens is, you swallow the entire narrative. And I think it's extremely dangerous to do that. So, I'm very open about this. So, if somebody identifies as the opposite gender, and they say, “I want you to call me ‘her’.” So when I'm speaking with them on an individual level, I will, and if somebody else walks in the room, I'm going to refer to them as “she”. But if I'm talking to my friend, and I'm like, “You know, Jane, formerly John, he thinks…” and they're like, “Wait, wait, don't you mean ‘she’?” I say, “No, not ‘she’, it's actually ‘he’, because I consider him to be a biological male, regardless of how he defines himself. And I'll say ‘he’ defines himself.” And they're like, “Yeah, but you know, she wouldn't be comfortable if you didn't use the pronoun” and they try to insist. And this comes back down to his comfort versus my comfort and my view of the world. So in front of him, I can go ahead and address him the way that he wants me to address him, but in front of my children, in front of my friends, in front of everyone else that I'm going to be interacting with, they're going to basically automatically assume that I have taken on the worldview of the other person, that their worldview has been forced upon me, and I've accepted it. That should not be the case.
I think we put ourselves in a very dangerous situation if we're going to succumb to that, because what we're doing is, now, I'm going to confuse my children, because then my children are going to grow up and they're like, “Well, you define John as Jane and you call him ‘her’, so we should be doing the same thing.” And it's going to automatically internalize in their mind that people can change their biological sex. There's no way I can explain to my seven-year-old that this is what's going on. I’m gonna try, I do actually talk to them about it, because you need to start when they're five nowadays, if you don't, then you're already late. I already started when he was five, you know, I teach kids classes, and I tell the kids and explain to them what is transgenderism and what's the problem with it. I'm not afraid, because I understand what's going on, and I knew this was coming, you know. So, there's sensitive ways - forget sensitive ways, there's intelligent ways to deal with it when it comes to kids.
So, again, I think the adults are the problem, adults are so afraid of the backlash. They're so afraid of “that person is going to feel offended, and that person is going to be this.” Well, it comes back down to “one of us is going to offend the other”, right? So either I'm going to offend you, or you're going to offend me, or you're going to have to make me offend my kids, or you're going to offend my kids by defining yourself in front of them, or not allowing me to tell my children and my friends and my family and my community the way that I perceive you. So, no matter what, you can't get around this whole “offending someone” business. So that's kind of the theoretical conception that I have, that, you know what, this is where I'm willing to compromise. I'm willing to call you Jane if you want to define as Jane, even though you were John to me last year. Okay, I'll call you Jane. No problem. But when I refer to you, as a pronoun, in front of everyone else that doesn't believe your perception of the world, doesn't swallow your idea of what the world is, what you think you are, then I'm going to refer to you as what we, collectively, 99.9% of people actually think you are. So you are not going to be able to dictate what my reality is. Because if I do succumb to that, then I'm confusing everyone else, including myself. So that's kind of the theoretical conception.
You asked about how do we deal with this on a practical level? Now, this is where it becomes very challenging, because we have people about to be fired for using the wrong pronouns, you have an elementary school teacher, or a middle school teacher, who is a Muslim - and let's just say, unfortunately, let’s use Muslim names - if Mohammed decides to identify as Aisha now, and this is what's going to happen. I mean, it's simply going to happen, this is the reality of it, unfortunately. Hopefully, it’s going to be a minority of a minority, but we have to deal with the situation that comes to us. So Mohammed is gonna sit there and he's gonna be like, “Well, I'm Aisha. Last year, I was Muhammad. Now I'm Aisha. And you're actually going to refer to me as ze, because I don't identify as either male or female. In fact, I just chose Aisha this year, but next year, I'm going to be like SR71. I'm going to be like some kind of codename.” I think that was Elon Musk’s child named somehow after the spy plane or whatever, some combination. So like, you're gonna have people identifying like that. And now the question is, if you don't use the right pronoun, you're going to be fired. So now it comes back down to what extent should we sit here and protest and say, okay, it's kind of like, serving alcohol in the restaurant, I need this job, I need to support my family. At the same time, I don't want to be serving alcohol, you know, to what extent do we keep this job? And to what extent do we start searching for other jobs?
It's almost going to get to the point where you can't be a computer programmer without having this legislation shoved down your throat. So if you address your programmer colleague who's on your programming team, and you're like, “Hey, you know, Jane, ‘she’ told me…” “Did you just use the word ‘she’?! You're supposed to use the word ‘ze’, because that's how ‘ze’ defines themselves!” And if you don't use the right pronoun, you'll be fired you. Your job is done. So if that's in the field of every single field across society, I think because of this general haja/حاجة or this need of people to maintain their jobs, it's going to cause so much mashaqqa/مشقة(difficulty) and difficulty for people to try and combat this on an institutional level when it comes to their job. I think there's a rukhsa/رخصة, there is a leeway for them to do that in their professional level, so they don't have to sit there and constantly get fired, sit there in lawsuits all day long and everything. At the same time, some states are going to be stronger in this than other states. So, I think, where Muslims do have the leeway, they should stand up for their rights. So it almost comes back down to like taking time off for Jumu’ah, like some people are so afraid, “I'm afraid to ask my employer to get leave for Jumu’ah, they're going to be like, ‘We need you on the lunch shift’ and all that.” Well, you know, we have the right to do that, you can go to file a complaint with CAIR and have a lawsuit, because you have a right to practice your religion. So in the sense that you have your right to practice your religion, you can demand certain things.
So if you live in a state, or you live in a place, or in a country where you have the ability to stand up, even though you're going to be socially ostracized for it, as long as you're not going to be so impacted where you keep losing job after job and you can't even find a place to work and you can't support your family, we should stand up and not be afraid. So there's a difference between the mashaqqa, the discomfort and the difficulty, that you have to face by having legislation that's literally going to prevent you from even maintaining a job, versus socially feeling awkward that people are looking at you like “Oh, man, you're like a transphobe, you're like a homophobe because you're not down with the LGBT agenda.” No, I think this is where we need to really draw the line. We need to have a very clear line between “I'm okay being uncomfortable with what other people think about me, because I'm proud to be a Muslim, and I'm proud of what Islamic values teach on this issue”, versus “I'm going to go through so much difficulty constantly getting fired from this job, getting another job, getting fired again from that job, because the legislation has gotten so bad in my state, or in my county, or in my country, that this is just going to make the life of every Muslim difficult.” In that case, you have the rukhsa, you have the license, you have the excuse to go ahead and be like, “Okay, fine. I don't agree with this, in theory, but to keep my job, I'm gonna go ahead and have some Rice Krispy treats with marshmallow gelatin in my coffee shop, because there's no other way I can maintain and survive now until I can get some other job or whatever.” So there's an exception to that rule.
And I think Muslims are going to fall into one of the two extremes, because that's generally what happens, and we need to understand that there's a middle approach, right? So a lot of people are going to be like, “Oh, yes, we got the green light! We don't have to say anything!” So the hospital is going to come and be like, “Everyone, all doctors and nurses need to put on a rainbow pin on their uniform, on their shirt.” And everyone's like, “Okay, well, we've got the fatwa from the sheikh, it's okay to wear the rainbow pin, because we didn't want to look weird!” No, go ahead and look weird and say, “Sorry, I don't want to wear the rainbow pin.” There's a difference between that and [the situation where] you are mandated by the company code to address people according to the pronoun that they define themselves, and then you're doing a consultation, and you're like, “No, I'm not going to address you by the pronoun [that you prefer], I'm going to address you by the pronoun that you biologically are.” And then they're like, “Oh, you're under probation now, because you violated company code.” So we need to be very clear about not falling into any of these two extremes.
Waheed 31:57
Absolutely. And then if you're sitting in a circle where it's not a matter of getting fired or [being] on probation, but it could be like a meeting where someone says, “Okay, well, we'll go around and state our names and preferred pronouns”, which is something that happens quite frequently. Would you say, “Okay, I'm not going to participate in this charade and just say, ‘My name is Mustafa Umar’ and just move on and not say him/his/he”? Or would you say, “Well, let me just move along and just say whatever they want to hear, and just come in peace”, so to speak. How would you behave in that situation?
Sh. Mustafa 32:32
I deal with this. So this is kind of my policy and the policy that I recommend for people. There's a difference between home court advantage and when you're in someone else's home, right? So in our center, for example, we have rented out our California Islamic University campus for other organizations sometimes to come. And there was one organization where they asked me to be in a roundtable, and they started doing pronoun introductions. And I'm like, “Hold on, this is my school, man! This is home court advantage, right? Like, I'm here, you're not going to tell me what to do in my space!” So when it came time to identify myself, everyone's doing the whole pronoun thing, and they're kind of looking at me, some of my students were there, they're looking at me like, “I wonder what he's gonna do! Is he going to identify or not identify?” And when it came time for me, and I'm like, “I’m Mustafa and I'm the local Imam, I'm the sheikh of the masjid here.” And that's it, who's going to tell me what to do, right? So I'm not embarrassed. And if anyone tries to tell me what to do, hey, this is my building. This is my home court advantage. You have no right to dictate to me. And if you feel uncomfortable in my space, you don't try to make me feel uncomfortable in my own space. So no, I don't put up with the pronoun introductions. “I am Mustafa, that’s a male name according to universal standards. This is the Arabic language, this is the universal Muslim culture throughout history, you're going to have to simply understand and use your common sense that Mustafa is a male name, and I look male, you should judge me as a male. And if you don't understand that, the problem is with you. The problem is not with me.”
Now the flip side, if I'm invited to like a Unitarian Universalist Church to speak, and I've been asked even to give the khutbah there, I’ve given the Sunday sermon there. And that's fine, I accept those invitations. So I go there, and then I'm sitting in a group, and they're like, “Hey, let's introduce everyone” and like pronoun introductions. This is not the time for me to be like, “You know what, I'm gonna address this gender pronoun issue right now, because this is the most important thing for me.” No, you know what, in that kind of circle, I'm here to explain what Islam is. I'm here to tell people who know very little about Islam, but they want to learn about it, or they want to learn about the Muslim community. I'm not here to comment on every little thing. So I go ahead and say, you know what, okay, “Mustafa, he/him”, that's my pronoun, whatever, it is not a big deal. Because we really have to look at priorities, right? I don't walk into their church and be like, “Oh, you know, this Jesus statue shouldn't really be there!” or “that's not my reality”, or “the way you painted this wall, you shouldn't do that!” So, for me, you have to just use your wisdom. It's like, when do you want to make this an issue and when do you not? And in which audience do you want to make this an issue and in which audience do you not?
So if I have a Muslim audience, well, I'm going to make it a big issue, because I'm quite frustrated with Muslims who are left-leaning or borderline progressives, trying to say that, “All Muslims need to accommodate this, we need to adjust, because we need to be sensitive, and all that.” Sensitivity is misplaced. Sensitivity is kind of what we've defined in this podcast about understanding and sympathizing with gender dysphoria and helping them go in the right direction, rather than the wrong direction. So, I think it really depends on the scenario, and you should just use your wisdom. So there should be some times in your life where you protest, and you say, “No, I'm not going to give into these gender introductions.” And there are some times in your life where you say, “I'm not gonna sit here and make this into a big issue, because I have bigger fish to fry and more important things to discuss with this audience. And I simply don't have the time to do this.” But I'm very clear in my own belief and my own understanding, while I'm choosing to engage in this form of introduction.
Waheed 36:43
Barak Allah feek, very, very clearly stated, jazak Allah khair. And my last question to you is pertaining to individuals who identify as non-binary or gender fluid, how do we deal with those individuals who tell us that “this is who we are, and you have to accept us”? Whether parents are coming to you asking you about their kids, “How should I deal with them right now, they're changing their clothing, their entire behavior and their worldview is shifting because of this.” Or if friends and family members come to you and ask you, “How do we deal with those individuals?” Because obviously, things are changing radically. So how do we deal with them, whether they're Muslim, or if we have non-Muslim friends or colleagues? How do we deal with them? What would be your answer?
Sh. Mustafa 37:30
Okay, so let's start with non-Muslims then. So, let's say you have a friend, and, all of a sudden, now they're defining as agender or non-binary, or something along the spectrum. Again, it comes back down to the wisdom on how you want to deal with this person, right? What is the most important thing for them? So, if this is, let's say, an old high school friend of mine, I haven't seen him for 20 years, and we were reconnecting to have a cup of coffee. Again, it comes back down to the idea of, “Okay, you want me to address you as your new name, you know, this is not the name I used to know you as. But now you identify this way, there’s a pronoun”, I don't have to sit there and be like, “By the way, I don't accept your understanding of the gender spectrum and all that, I believe in binary gender.” There is no need to address that in that type of meeting. Now, somewhere along the lines, if I keep on hanging around with this person, I see them regularly, I see them frequently, somewhere along the line, I probably should say, “By the way, you know, Islam teaches that binary gender is the right way to go. And this is why this conception is harmful. And this is kind of the way we view things. Have you ever given any thought to reconsidering your understanding of gender identity?” Like that's part of da’wa (calling people to Islam), right? That's like me hanging out with my non-Muslim friend, and some day, somewhere along the lines, be like, “You know what, have you considered giving up alcohol? Because it's actually bad for you, you know, you shouldn't be drinking so much”, or “Have you considered interest-free banking or interest-free investments? This is what Islam has to say about riba (usury). This is why you shouldn't do it.”
So I think that when it comes to gender, it falls in the same category of the idea that, if we believe, as Muslims, that Shari’a is something that is superior and something that is best for humanity, because it's the way that Allah - our Creator, He knows us better - He has told us that this is the way society should try to regulate itself, then we should not be ashamed to eventually tell people, but that doesn't mean it's in your first meeting or your fifth meeting. It could be your 10th meeting. So that’s I think the way we should deal with it when it comes to non-Muslims.
When it comes to Muslims, and when it comes to Muslim parents and dealing with their children, in particular, or dealing with a brother or sister or friend or family member, whatever it is, we should deal with it in the same way that we deal with any other violation of Islamic values. So if your son says “You know what, I've decided that I'm going to have a girlfriend, and I don't want to marry her, but I just want to have a girlfriend.” That's haram, that’s now allowed. How are you going to deal with that issue, especially if they come to you? So there's two ways: One of them they come to you and say “Well you know the verse says (ولا تقربوا الزنى) - Do not come near zina.” And he says, “Okay, fine. I'm not gonna go near it, I'm not gonna physically sleep with her. I'm just gonna have a girlfriend. So that's my understanding of the verse”, reinterpreting it. Or with alcohol, “You know, I pray, but I get drunk after I pray, you know, and then by the time I'm not drunk anymore [I pray], so like, you know, the verse says, ‘Do not come to prayer when you're intoxicated’. I'm not intoxicated when I'm praying!” They reinterpret the Qur’an. How do you deal with that? You deal with that in the same way where you have to understand what is the religiosity of this person, how do you slowly try to bring them back to the right way by making da’wah with them.
So I would say that if someone's identifying as agender or even transgender, whatever it may be, you understand that the number one priority for them is to bring them closer to Allah. So a lot of people don't understand that when someone is doing something that they're not supposed to do in Islam, they oftentimes don't understand what the priority is. So I encounter people like that, they're like, “Oh, my son, my daughter, they believe in the LGBT movement, hook, line and sinker. And they're an ally, or they themselves are identifying this way. What should I do?” So my first question that I ask is, “Do they pray?” They're like, “Um.. Yeah, not really!” I'm like, “Well, maybe the most important thing is for you to get them to actually start praying first. Have you discussed prayer with them?” And they’re like “No, but we need to get them to stop this homosexuality thing or whatever.” It's like you're not understanding, number one, what is the priority in the sight of Allah, and, number two, what's the priority of one type of behavior leading to another type of behavior - prayer and connecting with Allah and going to the masjid and reading Islamic books, making thikr (remembrance), making tawbah (repentance), just in general, all of that is going to help solve their problem that they're engaging in, whether it comes to homosexuality, or whether it comes to cross dressing, or whether it comes to identifying as non-binary or whatever it may be.
It all comes back down to a holistic approach, and a lot of people are not understanding that, unfortunately, and they keep on missing this, and that's why I keep on reiterating, like focus on the fundamentals, for two reasons. Number one is because Allah values the fundamentals more than the other things, not that [the other things] are halal, but just that there's a priority of what's more important. Tawheed (belief in Oneness of Allah) is more important than fasting, belief in One Allah is more important. Although both are necessary, one is way more important. So the same thing, that prayer is more important than solving the gender identity and the way a person is identifying. And what's going to happen is the second thing, when we focus on those fundamentals, they will help greatly solve the other problems that are there, otherwise there's no way to solve them. You can't sit there and just simply intellectually debate someone - usually someone like that is usually beyond an intellectual discussion. They're not going to show up to the sheikh’s office, because the parents are like, “I'm gonna bring my kid, he believes this and that, you talk to him, convince him that this is wrong.” He's not at that point! He has no connection with the sheikh, he has no respect for a sheikh. He doesn't even go to the masjid, he doesn't even pray. So how’s he supposed to do that? Where's the rapport? There's no rapport that's established. Now if there's a rapport, if this is someone who is my student, they've been attending my Islamic classes, they're well known in the community, they pray, they do all these things, now that's a very different discussion. The majority of cases fall in the category of no established connection. And if there is established connection, then we can discuss that. You have like Mobeen’s article, you are a co-author of that article. Those types of things can really help people, but that's not the majority of cases.
Waheed 45:03
Sh. Mustafa Umar, Jazak Allah khairain and for joining me throughout all of these episodes together, any last messages, last words that you would like to give the listeners who are listening to you today?
Sh. Mustafa 45:13
Sure. Really just the summary is that we need to go outside of these two extremes that we're seeing. One of them is swallowing the progressive LGBT agenda, hook, line and sinker, versus the opposite, and that is not sympathizing with same-sex attraction and not sympathizing with gender dysphoria as a condition for Muslims who are not choosing this, but they're afflicted by this. There's a really delicate balance that we need to find. We should avoid these two extremes and try to find a solution in the middle.
Waheed 45:54
Absolutely, inshaAllah. Amen. Barak Allah feek. And with this, we have come to the end of today's episode, which wraps up our discussion on the Shar’i and the fiqhi perspectives, as well as the entire series on gender nonconformity, gender dysphoria as well as transgenderism. In the next episode, inshaAllah, my friend Aadam is joining me, and we will be starting a series of episodes dedicated to parents and family members of individuals who experience same-sex attractions and/or gender dysphoria. Until then, stay safe and healthy. This has been Waheed Jensen in “A Way Beyond the Rainbow”, assalamu alaikom warahmatullahi ta’ala wabarakatuh.