#86 - For Teachers and Educators

This episode is a discussion with Br. Yahya Van Rooy on the current challenges facing teachers, educators and school administrators given the LGBT paradigm, and how Muslims parents and teachers can navigate them together.

How can we provide the Muslim youth with firm footing so as not to be swayed by modern media and pop culture? How can we help students navigate challenges with regards to the LGBT narrative within their own schools? How can we support teachers and parents navigate those challenges? How do we, as fellow students, teachers and staff members, deal with students "coming out" in our schools? What resources are available for Muslim teachers and educators? These and other questions are explored in this episode.

Resources mentioned in the episode:
- ISLA course outline "Addressing LGBTQ issues in our schools and communities" (with resource links)
- Working Towards Principles on Islamic Sexual Ethics (slideshow)
- Religious Schools and Colleges Guidance for Same Sex Issues, Sample and Model Policies from the Christian Legal Society

Chapters

• 0:37 Episode Introduction
• 3:15 Br. Yahya's Story
• 18:42 On Establishing Foundation with Our Youth
• 28:19 On Helping Students Navigate the Current Narratives
• 46:31 On Helping Parents and Educators Navigate the Current Narratives
• 51:30 Survey Responses from the Straight Struggle Online Community
• 1:07:55 On Dealing with Students "Coming Out"
• 1:18:33 Between Islam's Position and Media and Pop Culture
• 1:25:55 Muslims: Where We Are and Where We Should Be
• 1:35:40 Future Plans and Contact Information
• 1:40:29 Ending Remarks

Transcript

Waheed  00:37
Assalamu alaikom warahmatullahi ta’ala wabarakath, and welcome back to “A Way Beyond the Rainbow”, this podcast series dedicated to Muslims experiencing same-sex attractions who want to live a life true to Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala and Islam. I'm your host, Waheed Jensen, and thank you for joining me in today's episode. With this episode, inshaAllah, we continue our series of episodes addressing the larger community. So, as you guys remember, we had a couple of episodes for parents and family members, and then for spouses, and in today's episode, we are going to be addressing educators, school administrators, and individuals involved in the educational system. 

And joining me in today's episode is Br. Yahya Van Rooy. Br. Yahya has been involved in the field of international education for the past 15 years in six different countries. He holds a masters of education degree with a concentration in curriculum development and supervision. Currently, he serves as the upper elementary principal at an American Islamic school in Dubai in the United Arab Emirates. He also serves as the Community Development Associate for the “Islamic Schools League of America”, also known as ISLA, where he focuses on providing professional learning workshops on critical issues in K-12 Islamic schools. Br. Yahya is deeply committed to Islamic school renewal as well as practicing and teaching the principles of Islamic pedagogy. 

In this episode, inshaAllah, Br. Yahya and I are going to be talking about so many different things. Br. Yahya is going to be sharing with us a little bit about his background and his personal story, and we're going to be talking about the influence of the LGBT paradigm on school curricula and on educational systems, particularly in the West, but also around the world, and how we as Muslims can work around that, what resources are available for teachers and educators, as well as parents, how to deal with students who are “coming out”, and how to raise awareness and educate the youth of today on Islam’s stance when it comes to gender and sexuality issues, among other questions and other pertinent themes. And I will also, inshaAllah, discuss with Br. Yahya the results of the survey that we conducted on Straight Struggle last summer, and we're going to be addressing particularly the questions that were directed to teachers, educators and school administrators. So let's get started, inshaAllah.

Waheed  03:15
Assalamu alaikom Br. Yahya! How are you doing today?

Yahya  03:17
Wa alaikom assalam, I'm doing well, Br. Waheed. How are you today?

Waheed  03:22
Alhamdulillah, I'm very well. And I'm so, so happy to be doing this episode with you. I’m very honored and very grateful to be having these discussions, alhamdulillah. Br. Yahya and I have known each other for almost a year now, subhan Allah. We've been going back and forth, having a lot of wonderful conversations and realizations and working together on many projects that we'll be talking about today, inshaAllah. But before we start with the bulk of the topic today, which is concerning parents and educators, school administrators, everyone involved in the educational system, vis-a-vis what's happening with the LGBT community and the changes that are happening in the curriculum globally, so to speak. I'd like to first start by asking you to share with us a part of your story, I know you have a rich story to share with us that is relevant to our discussion today and relevant to a lot of the themes that we've been talking about throughout the seasons of the podcast. So yeah, the floor is yours, we'd love to hear from you, inshaAllah.

Yahya  04:28
Okay, jazak Allah khair, Br. Waheed. It is also a real honor for me to be on the podcast. Of course, I've been a listener and benefited greatly from a lot of the material that has come on the podcast, alhamdulillah. So it is a great pleasure. I imagined maybe we'd be sitting in a little podcast studio, sharing a cup of coffee, but, for now, this will work. Maybe one day, I can actually visit your real studio! 

Waheed  04:57
InshaAllah, inshaAllah. I’d love that! 

Yahya  05:00
InshaAllah. So, I would like to start by sharing a bit of my personal journey. So, bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Raheem, we begin by sending peace and blessings upon the Prophet (PBUH) and his followers, family members and all of the listeners here today. So, my story. I embraced Islam almost five years ago in Saudi Arabia, Alhamdulillah. And it was a long journey, I can say that, having grown up Catholic, having considered joining the monastery at one time, having lived in a meditation community in India, having been a spiritual seeker most of my adult life, that eventually led me to all places, Saudi Arabia, without any intention of really exploring Islam at that time. 

So let me say first, before I came to Islam, a big part of my identity was as a social justice activist, and I was involved in that community. Of course, many members that I worked with at that time in the past were members of the LGBTQ community, many of them were my friends, they were mentors and people I cared a lot about. At that time, I learned a lot about social justice issues from this group. And, in fact, I spent even a summer living amongst that community doing this work. And when I eventually did embrace Islam, that was a big issue for me to come to terms with. It was a first real test of faith. And I remember talking with some members of the community, and they had said, basically, “You're either with us or against us”, and that “We don't need your compassion.” That was kind of the message for me, it was very strong. And I remember, at that time too, someone had shared that there are other ways to interpret this issue, there are other ways to read the Qur’anic stories, to interpret them in a different light that would, in fact, make these actions permissible. And so, I had that initial idea in my head, and it was very difficult, because I didn't know how to respond at that time. I was new to Islam. I was very much embedded in what we now would call the “identity paradigm”, and very much a secular, even though I had grown up Catholic, I was very much embedded in the secular worldview. I didn't even have that terminology at the time, of “worldview”, but that's where I was coming from. 

And so feeling that kind of rejection from the community too was difficult. And the way I dealt with it at that time was I just cut off all of those contacts. And what I did was I looked to see what I could find to kind of resolve this issue. And what I found was Scott Kugle’s book. I don't even remember the title of it, but it was, I think, Homosexuality in Islam. I had bought that and said, “Okay, well, this is going to be a way for me to resolve this issue. And then I can move on.” Now, I never actually read the book. In fact, my wife, flash forward several years ahead, had asked me to remove it from our home library. I never read it, but I did print out Br. Mobeen’s response to it. And I put that in the book. And for about a year or so, I just left it there. I knew that, eventually, I'd have to look at both of these and see, and try to come to some understanding of how does Islam answer this question, this issue. 

So that sat there for some time, but it kept eating away at me, because for me, it was both an intellectual issue that had to be resolved and also an emotional one, because of these relationships I had made. Now I'm not someone that ever experienced same-sex attraction, but I definitely am someone that went through a lot of struggles around identity, around belonging, and also my own struggle with addiction, of going through that process as well. So, I found in the community a real sense of belonging there, of really inviting me in, initially. However, that did change, to some degree, once I embraced Islam, and my choice was to cut off. So that issue sat there unresolved for quite some time. And then, when I picked it up again, it was because of my involvement in ISLA, which I can talk a little bit about later in the podcast, too, but ISLA, the “Islamic Schools League of America” is a network of educators in North America, and this issue started coming up in the listserv. So we have an email listserv, and teachers and educators were looking for resources, they were looking for answers. And so, I thought, “Now is the time for me also to try to resolve this again and really understand what is the Islamic perspective, and how do I understand this for myself and to start doing that work of unpacking it.” 

And out of that, which was now almost two years ago, a year-and-a-half ago, we started the first group of educators to start to look at the issue. And before that, I had done my own work. In fact, I started reading the works of Br. Mobeen, who I know has been a guest on here, on the podcast. And then I got through some of his reading, Br. Yousef’s article, the work from Muslim Matters. And so, I started to find helpful resources, and eventually I was led to your podcast too. And I think it was an initial webinar you had done with - was it with Strong Support?

Waheed  11:41
That is correct. With Br. Ali Jaafery from the UK.

Yahya  11:45
Yeah, with Br. Ali. So, I attended that, and then I got in touch with you, and, subhanAllah, Allah started putting people in my path that could help me resolve this issue. But it was a big personal struggle. And when I listened to your podcast and your story, I resonated with a lot of things, because for me too, you had used the term “cognitive dissonance”, and kind of a clash of worldviews. And I had felt that to some degree too, because as I went into the issue, I realized that I had to really shift my whole worldview. And I will say, though - I was discussing this with a brother the other day, how going through the process really increased my yaqeen (conviction) too, because I came to see that, indeed, Islam does have answers. And I came to see that and believe more strongly that Islam has come as a message for all people and all times, and therefore, it should be able to respond to any of these contemporary issues we're facing. 

And so that was my experience. Now, it was not an easy journey. And I found a lot of benefit, as a result, listening to the podcasts and going through some of the articles, and really trying to unpack it for myself. And through that, too, I was able to reflect on the other work I had done too around my own struggles with addiction and 12-step programs, and also that sense of belonging, like I said, that I've been searching for. When I look at a lot of my journey was all along looking for a sense of belonging, a sense of being part of a community. And I think that's why this issue I feel so strongly about, because I want to help other people come to an understanding and feel a sense of belonging too, so whether you're experiencing SSA or not, but to find in Islam a place of belonging, as a brother and as a sister. And that has been, alhamdulillah, my experience over my five-year journey of embracing Islam. 

So, of course, there's a lot I could say about that journey, but what I've realized, and what I've shared with others too, is that this work is the work that we all need to be doing, this work of jihad al-nafs (struggle with the self) of tazkiyat al-nafs (purification of the self and the heart). In my case, I also had challenges with mental health and mental illness. And so, I went through therapy, but really, that work, everyone needs to be doing it. And as you and I have discussed before, on trauma, so much of just being in the modern world, you experience trauma, and we all, as Muslims, need to be doing that work. So, what you have assembled in the podcast is of great benefit, definitely to those experiencing SSA, but also to anyone really that's living in this contemporary time. And we know too, as Muslims, that wherever we find beneficial knowledge, we can take it. It's the lost property of the believer, there's a hadith about that. So, all of those things, even though they may be not from Islamic sources, they're of great benefit. And that's been my experience too, in my own journey, of gathering resources and ideas that can help me kind of get to a place of balance. 

So I've been incredibly grateful for that work that you've done in podcast, and I encourage and hope that others will listen to it as well and see that this will benefit you, and also the knowledge will be able to benefit students and parents as well, to help Muslim youth, especially, navigate this time of increasing fitna and challenges. Alhamdulillah. 

I'm happy to share my story too with others if it's going to be of benefit, and I just pray that Allah puts in my story a benefit for the listeners, that's why I want to share it, if it can be of benefit or service to others that are going through a similar journey. So I will just leave it open to say that if people would like to reach out to me, if it would be helpful for me to share something else, or another part of my journey, I feel that's a duty and obligation, and I know that Allah has given me this qadr (destiny) and brought me through this long journey, as he's done for all of us. And those things in my past that were great struggles can, inshaAllah, benefit others or even be hasanat (rewards/expiation) for the mistakes I've made in the past, I've learned from them, and I've been blessed to go through all of that. And I suppose, in that way, my experience is somewhat unique in that I embraced Islam, and I was very involved in this community, I tried to work through it, that was a big part of my journey and my test. And so I understand the struggle from different angles as well and would hope that that would be of benefit to others too. My intention is really to try to be of service to the community, to share my experience to help those that are struggling to understand this issue, that are struggling to find resources, and pray that Allah makes it easy for all of us, inshaAllah.

Waheed  17:18
Ameen, ameen. Barak Allah feek. Masha,Allah, this is so wonderful to hear! May Allah reward you. And I really appreciate your vulnerability and the things that you've shared with us so far. You know, it takes a lot of courage for you to say that you've dealt with these issues and you've come a long way, alhamdulillah, and that you are using all of this knowledge and experience that you have to give back to the community, and to actually help people who are struggling, because you know what it means to struggle when it comes to the sense of belonging and identity, and to want to be active to help people, but then to feel alienated, because there's a sense of dissonance as well. Alhamdulillah that you found your home within Islam, and that you are contributing to helping the community further. Subhan Allah, this is one of the most important issues in our time and age right now, with everything that's happening around us, and it's wonderful to have you here to be talking about all of these topics that we want to talk about today. 

I'll be learning so much from you, inshaAllah, in this episode, and I'm sure that a lot of us are going to be learning so many new things, so many useful things and practical tools that will help us, first and foremost, as teachers and educators, but also as parents and as students ourselves who are dealing with all of these issues.

18:42
Let's start with some general questions. For anyone who's listening right now who's thinking like, for you, as an educator and as a parent, we know that the LGBTQ paradigm is here to stay, and it is only becoming more and more normalized with time. So how do we teach our children, whether they're kids or adolescents, how do we teach our children about that, so that they can be well established or well versed in the deen, or to actually have a good footing on it before the first time that they would hear about it is from the glamorized versions in the media and at school, and so on? What can you share with us?

Yahya  19:24
Sure. So I'll start by just saying that, you know, as I've worked with educators over the last year-and-a-half now, I've tried to gather answers to these questions, too. So what I'm sharing too is kind of a collection of ways that educators have dealt with the questions that you're going to pose, and I reached out as well before the podcast to our working groups, which I'll share more about that later too, to ask for their input too, so that I can try to collectively represent the work that's going on right now, particularly in Islamic schools in North America, but also globally. So, I will just state that, saying that these aren't all my own ideas, they've come from a group of educators.

Waheed  20:11
And we thank them as well for contributing to all of this content, jazakom Allah khairan. 

Yahya  20:15
Yes, alhamdulillah. Okay, so the question about how do we teach our children to get a footing before they start to hear about a glamorized version at school and TV. Now this is a question that often comes up from parents and from educators both. And that speaks to, the first point I would make, that this work is really a collective work of our community at large; meaning educators, parents, community members, imams, counselors, it really will be a collective effort. And I often tell that to parents in my work, I'm also a school principal, and the work of tarbiyah, of holistic development, is a partnership. So the work really needs to happen together in collaboration, and the first place to start is often informing ourselves in the process that I myself went through, and that a lot of the educators in our program went through, so that we can be prepared to answer student questions when they come up, or our children's questions. 

And this is another thing parents aren't often aware of, in my experience, that kids are inundated with this messaging on YouTube, on any of the social media, everywhere now. And we know that's part of the LGBTQ agenda, to increase that messaging, and now even coming to the Arab world where I'm at. So we really do have to be prepared. And as one early participant shared in our group, also a school principal, she said, “For many years, I've kept my head in the sand, this issue has been too overwhelming.” And we can no longer afford to do that. We have to face the issue, we have to understand it, and we have to be prepared. We have to be very involved in our children's lives, our students’ lives, both as parents and as educators. So that's a place to start too. 

So, one, understanding the issue, the complexity of it, the nuances of it, which means understanding, of course, the secular modern paradigm, and then looking at what is the Islamic paradigm, and then how do we prepare students for that from a young age, and that's something else we're looking at, in our work with ISLA, is curriculum work too, so that an Islamic worldview is being built from a very young age. Now I'll share another term that a sister in our group used with her own kids, which is to “recalibrate”. She said, “Often, every day, I need to recalibrate with my children.” And what did she mean by that? She meant recalibrating towards what is pleasing to Allah, what is pleasing to Allah. So when we look at things, like issues around a family, well, that is often very different from what we find in the modern paradigm. And so what is pleasing to Allah? That's how she put it, always reminding children of that, and when the questions do come up, they need to be prepared for them. 

Now, the other part too, and this comes from another educator, is that we have to, as much as we can, scaffold the fitrah (inherent predisposition, authentic self). And I really love that term, “Scaffold the fitrah” at those young ages, to try to protect our kids too. And that means being aware of what they're watching, what they're listening to, who they're spending time with. There will come a time where, yes, these questions will come up, but as much as we can, and I think of my daughter who’s only nine months, but I think of that, to scaffold that fitrah as long as possible, and to provide that wholesome Islamic environment in terms of what she's reading, what she's listening to, to be very involved. So I think that's a place to start, because we know it’s inevitable once they're out in the world, the messaging is there. It's everywhere. And it's getting stronger.

I was back, Waheed, for the first time to the US in three years. And I was shocked, you know, I came back, it happened to be during pride month, but just everywhere I went, the messaging was there, on the conservative news channel, you know, everything. I wouldn't have ever imagined that, but it was everywhere. And, you know, no one else is really blinking an eye, which also was concerning too, because that has become so normalized. And that's having been out of that environment so long. So I know how challenging it is for parents and for educators. But we really do have to be prepared. It starts with us, and then really being involved and providing alternatives too, so those are a few points I would make.

Waheed  24:52
Jazak Allah khairan. That makes perfect sense. And a follow-up question to that, a lot of parents and educators also ask: How do we deal with the explosion of sex and the LGBT representation that's taking place in pop culture and the media, and nowadays in school curricula, how do we deal with that at a practical level? What are the practical steps to kind of avoid or try to minimize exposure as much as possible? I mean, you touched upon this in your earlier answer, but would you like to elaborate a little bit more? 

Yahya  25:19
Yeah, and that issue’s come up here, you know, recently at my school, too, because, in my conversations with parents, a lot of them are not aware at all of what their kids are being exposed to. And even, I realized, they themselves wouldn't necessarily interpret it in the way that they need to, because it very clearly has an agenda. And so, what it's made me realize there too, is that parents need workshops on this too, but they need to be more involved. So, one place is to know what your kids are really watching and listening to, and to monitor that. On the school side also; schools have to monitor that too. And a lot of schools have this open access to YouTube, for example, or to any social media. So that also needs to be monitored. What we're trying to do at my school, which is an American Islamic school, is really be intentional about that, and then providing alternatives too and responsible use, because, ultimately, we want students to be able to self-regulate as well, to know that, “Oh, this is something that I shouldn't be watching, this has an effect, and I have to protect myself, just as I do with the food I eat, what I consume.” So teaching kids that too, that skill of self-regulation is also key to this, because, yes, anytime they turn on the TV or any social media or YouTube, the messaging is going to be there. So I think that's important as well, teaching themselves to self-regulate, and be able to do that work of avoiding it themselves. 

Now, I know the other thing that comes up, too, and often parents share this with me as well, “Well, I'm the one monitoring at home, but other parents know, and their kids are watching this, and they're talking about it, recommending this and that.” And that happened just last week, there was an issue of that. And that, again, is where we have to, as educators in schools and as involved parents, be clear on our school policies, and what we accept and what we don't, and why, and the type of Islamic environment we're trying to promote, the worldview we're trying to develop. And so it really involves that community effort, because, so many times, the parents are left out, and they need support as well. And many of them are asking for it, they really are looking for support. So I think, as educators, we do need to do a better job of working with parents, providing resources, and working as a community to help our youth really to navigate this issue. So I think that's a big part of this as well.

Waheed  28:02
Absolutely, absolutely. And we'll add, inshaAllah, a list of resources in the episode description for everyone to check out, inshaAllah. A lot of these will be discussed, inshaAllah, in today's episode. 

28:19
With this brief introduction, now, if we are going to look at things from the perspective of a student, you know, the students of nowadays, whether they're in elementary school, middle school, high school, even at college level, how do we deal with an educational system that is enforcing the LGBT narrative on us? And let us start now first by talking about, you know, the secular academic system in the West, because that's different from talking about like Islamic schools in the Middle East, right? That's completely different. Let's start by talking about secular schools in the US or Europe, and the educational system is LGBT-affirming, pro-LGBT, we celebrate Pride Month, we do assignments that shows solidarity, we're all Allies, were encouraged to question our sexuality and even experiment. Now, the question is, if we are Muslims who are in these environments, as students now, how do we deal with these matters? What are your recommendations?

Yahya  29:18
Yeah, this is definitely a big challenge. And I have talked to people that are working in higher education, people that are students themselves on how to navigate this issue. And something that we've been talking about in our educator working group is being unapologetically Muslim. And what I mean by that is we have a very clear worldview and a moral stance on these issues. I know you talk about this in other episodes, but it's really putting the conversation also on our terms, because we have to move away from that identity paradigm, and look at an Islamic paradigm, and I know that's discussed in some of the other episodes, about how to go about that, and that's really that conceptual shift. So that's a big part of it. Otherwise, the conversation is often over before it started. And that was my experience, too. You know, when I first embrace it, immediately I was labeled a bigot, as backwards, as someone who didn't care about human rights. And that immediately silenced me. I didn't know how to respond. And I know that's been the experience of others too. And when I talked to a youth leader, when I was back home, he said that some of the challenges that he has seen amongst both youth and university students even would be that they're losing that strong sense of Islamic identity. In fact, he even used the term I think, you know, not ashamed, but almost, yeah, I guess it would be, they didn't have that strong sense of identity. It’s an “inferiority complex”, that was the word, an inferiority complex about being Muslim. That was a big issue. 

Sh. Abdal-Hakim Murad has commented on this too. And, oftentimes, we're kind of in the corner, we just want [for people] to leave us alone. Islam is peace. And that's it, you know. But we actually need to go more on the offensive too, because we do have an alternative paradigm that can be very therapeutic as well. So we have to have courage. And there's a “3-C” approach that I proposed, and I took this partly from, I think, some of the Christians working on this, and it's “clarity, compassion and conviction”, these three C's when we address this issue. So, clarity, really understanding the issue, and that takes some work, definitely. And then the conviction is, once you have that clarity, you can feel confident in challenging and standing up for your rights, especially on these issues of morality, which are central to our deen. And then, compassion too, that is the way of the Prophet (PBUH), but that doesn't mean caving in on every issue. That's another thing I've had to learn in my journey, compassion is ultimately doing for oneself what is pleasing to Allah, and guiding others to do what is pleasing to Allah, enjoining the good and forbidding the wrong. And, sometimes, that means having difficult conversations, that means, in my case, having to end some relationships or some friendships. 

And so, at that level, we do have to be prepared, because we do have to start to push back. And that's where I've found a lot of resistance amongst educators, the fear of being challenged, being labeled a bigot, being canceled (cancel culture). Even now we know, the other factor, Waheed, is the legal issues too. And I was just discussing with brothers and sisters in Australia, in there, the legal issue is moving even faster than in the US, where their jobs can be at risk. And it's moving so fast. But we do have to push back, and we have to go on the offensive on some of these issues. And we have a moral basis to stand on, that's very clear. So that's what I would say, it's those three C's: Clarity, getting clarity on the issue, that will create the conviction when you're able to discuss it with someone, and then the compassion too, and understanding that others will be at different stages of coming to understand it or not. And the other piece is “لكم دينكم ولي دين” - For you is your moral way, and for me as mine. So, yes, we live in this secular, liberal society, but that doesn't mean that others have the right to impose their worldview on mine. You know, I have a right to live by my moral code, and, yes, I'm not asking you to live by it, but also don't force me to embrace yours. And so, I don't know if that answers the question exactly, but that's been some of my experience on a personal level, and also with talking with others too, that that's what we have to do. We really have to start to take a stand. You know, we've been silent for a long time, for too long.

Waheed  34:43
Agreed for sure, 100%. And I think you answered the question beautifully, but I'd also add that a lot of parents or students themselves are afraid, because they would be like, “We're the only ones dealing with this.” Well, no, you're not, and there are support systems and there are groups that can help you, Muslim-based groups or faith-based groups that can help you with this, you're not the only one. And this is something that involves not just Muslims, but also other people of faith - Christians, Jews, and so on.  

I remember you and I, when we first started talking, we were talking about how other religious groups, like Christians and Jews, have their organizations and support groups that are really dealing with this issue and helping their own communities. Whereas Muslims, unfortunately, we don't have a lot of these resources. Now, in the past year or two, things have started picking up for Muslims, alhamdulillah, and now we have these resources, and we're building the foundation, so to speak. And ISLA is one of those groups, alhamdulillah, and you have others that you'll be talking to us about today. But just to mention that you are not alone, and if you are struggling as a student or parent or educator, please reach out, there are resources that can help you with this. You don't have to feel alone, because when we feel alone and singled out among the crowd, we will feel afraid and kind of have anxiety to be on the offensive, as you say. But it doesn't have to be, it's never a one-man show, it's never a one-sided approach. It has to be kind of multidisciplinary, as you alluded to before, right?

Yahya  36:15
Yes, absolutely. That's it. And I think that's a very important point. And that was my experience, too, of going through it. Once I realized there was a community out there, there were resources, then I could feel more confident having those conversations. And, you know, they can be difficult conversations with family members, with community members. Yeah, it's not easy. It's not easy. And what I would add here, too, in the work as educators, it's really important to be doing that spiritual work oneself. Especially in education, as mu’allim and as murabbi; mu’allim being a conveyor of knowledge, and murabbi a nurturer of souls. To be in that state, we have to be doing that work on ourselves. And, again, I'm borrowing this term from Abdal-Hakim Murad, “spiritual technology”, we have that within there. And sometimes they're simple but very powerful things. For example, trying to be in a state of wudu’ (ablution), praying taraweeh (supererogatory night prayers), these types of things have helped me immensely, when I'm facing a challenging situation, to be in a spiritual state and ask Allah for help. Because, a lot of times, yeah, I'm afraid too, I don't know what I'm going to say, you know. Before going on this podcast, too, I’m in a state of wudu’, I'm asking Allah to guide me, to put in me words that are going to be of benefit. So, alhamdulillah, we have those resources that we also need to draw on, that will help us, and there is a big growing community out there and growing resources. So alhamdulillah. Alhamdulillah.

Waheed  37:54
Alhamdulillah. So, in other words, making use of or making sure that we have proper spiritual foundations, and taking into consideration that there are practical spiritual measures that we can take to kind of keep us grounded, because this work needs healthy spiritual well-being, and a connection to Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala. Because, at the end of the day, we keep Allah front and center. Because without Allah, as Sh. Yasir Qadhi always says (rephrased) “Take Allah out of the equation, and then do as you please. But when you put Allah front and center, it just changes the entire equation.” And this is the only reason, I mean, Allah is the One that we're doing all of this for, for His sake, we are striving on this path in these difficult times. So, barak Allah feek for mentioning this, because it's very important to take spirituality into consideration. Without that, you know, this entire effort is pointless, I would say, or very deficient, subhan Allah. 

Yahya  38:53
Absolutely. And I will just add, before we move to the next question, is that, for me, that was very helpful in reflecting on. Ultimately, I'm here to please Allah, He is the One Who will judge me on Yawm Al-Qiyama (Day of Judgment). If I'm rejected by everyone else, that's okay. It’s not easy, but I know that if I'm doing what is pleasing to Allah, then that is what matters. And that helped me a lot, kind of shifting that framework, because, of course, that was difficult for me, I was searching for that belonging, that acceptance, and it's not easy, but that is helpful to know that we are here to do what is pleasing to Allah. That is what we're here for.

Waheed  39:35
Absolutely. And the reverse is also true, like even if I have my sense of belonging and identity with a group of people, but then I lose that with Allah, then what good does it make for me? It’s not going to serve me at all, whether in this life or the Next, subhan Allah.

That's as far as like secular schools in the West, but we know that there are differences when it comes to like public versus private schools in the West. You, as an educator, know that, or like when we talk about private Islamic schools in the West versus public schools, or like secular education. And then we take it across the globe, like if we go to the Middle East, or Asian countries, or Muslim majority countries, Africa, for example, etc., we see that, well, Islamic schools have a different paradigm. But, unfortunately, nowadays with the globalization and the normalization of the “woke” culture, things are starting to change. So, as an educator, Br. Yahya, what differences do you see between these different establishments? What are the advantages and disadvantages for students and educators in these different scenarios?

Yahya  40:41
So actually, although I am involved very much so with ISLA, I've never actually worked in an Islamic school in the US. So just to clarify that, but I've been involved with ISLA which works with around 100, between 150 and 200 Islamic schools in North America. So I have had a chance to interact with a lot of educators in the North American context, also in the Middle East, and now more recently, with South Africa and Australia. So, I have been able to have a kind of wide-ranging perspective on what the schools are doing, and how they're addressing this issue in particular. And I'll say that, you know, part of my wider work with ISLA, too, is really looking at Islamic school renewal, the work of Islamic school renewal and curriculum renewal. Actually my academic background is in a curriculum development supervision. So it is a passion of mine, and perhaps something to talk about more at another time around Islamic pedagogy, and it very much connects into this issue though. 

And what I'll say is that, Islamic schools, a large majority have, unfortunately, adopted in many ways a secular paradigm with their curriculum. Yes, they may have an Islamic Studies class, they have dress code, they have a prayer hall, but everything else in the curriculum is from a secular worldview. And that is part of the problem. So, really, Islamic schools are positioned to do something different, to really look at these issues. And what I've come to see is that many are not, and they're looking for guidance and resources. So that's some of the other work we're doing at ISLA as well, and other organizations are doing it too. But we really have to look at our curriculum and make sure that it is integrated with an Islamic worldview, so not that I'm studying science from a secular viewpoint, and then I have Islamic studies, everything's disjointed. So there really is this importance of an integrated tawhidic Islamic curriculum. And that's where Islamic schools have that ability to do that, and, alhamdulillah, many are starting to do that work. And if the school is not, it should really be looking at their curriculum, is it instilling this worldview from KG and up? 

At my school, we have what's called a “big question”, and we have a central question for every six-week unit, which is integrated across all the subjects, it has an Islamic thread. We have actually a resident Imam that helps with Islamic integration. So, alhamdulillah, we were doing that work, we're on that path. And it's something that I hope more schools will do as well, because we need to, that's where we need to start looking at our curriculum and make sure that it's aligned with an Islamic worldview. And Islamic schools have the ability to do that. 

Now, yes, laws are shifting, and that's happening as the brothers and sisters have shared in Australia, but for private and independent schools, there is that freedom to teach from a religious worldview. Now, other private schools or public schools you mentioned, there's another brother I know that's Muslim and working in the public schools, and he's trying to do some of this work and inform what they call “culturally responsive pedagogy” for Muslim students that are in the public school, because this is the thing, a very small percentage of Muslim students in the West are actually in full-time Islamic school. So, most of the Muslim students are in the public school system. And this is another challenge we're facing, because they don't have access then to this Islamically-oriented curriculum. And we know now that, from as young as KG, sexuality and gender curriculum is being taught in California, for example. So there really is a role to play for Islamic schools, and for those, the issue is often that they are expensive, so not everyone can attend them. 

So we need to look at that as well in our community, and make sure these resources are available to weekend schools, to a lot of families that are homeschooling, and some of those families have reached out. So we do. But if you're in an Islamic school, really, that's a place where you can do this work of building the Islamic worldview with your curriculum. So I would say that is the advantage, that is potential, and that's the work that that should be happening, and it’s starting to happen, alhamdulillah. But it's a big task, you know, it is a big part of the work ahead, as we look at Islamic school renewals, so that we can prepare the next generation. And, you know, in my experience often, even at an Islamic school, the students don't have aqeedah 101, you know, they have to start with really the basics, and building it up, but then making it relevant, because, as the brother shared with me, there is this sense that, sadly, right now, amongst a lot of the youth, Islam is not relevant to their life, it's not providing the answers they need, which is not the case. So that work is urgent, you know, and those of us too that maybe came to Islam have seen that very powerfully, at least my experience has been that, that yes, it does have these answers. And so we need to make sure we're teaching that in our schools.

Waheed  46:31
Earlier, I asked you about students and how to deal with an educational system that's pro-LGBT and LGBT-affirming, and kind of being pushed into the corner, and either you're with us or against us, etc. Now, what about parents and educators, how do they deal with that? I think you've touched upon this as well when you mentioned the 3 C's, like clarity, conviction, compassion, I think that also applies here. It's very important to take that into account. But as parents and educators, what else? What other pieces of advice would you give them as well? So if you have, like a parent who is struggling, because his/her kids are in that particular school that is just shoving the LGBT narrative down their throat, or if you have an educator who is working in that school and feels very uncomfortable about this content. What advice would you give them? Because, at the end of the day, that educator might lose his/her livelihood if they opt out of particular activities or particular lessons to be taught. And parents, the same, they would be very confused, because my child is surrounded with all of this messaging, and there's only so much I can do at home, but then he/she goes to school, and it's just a completely different planet. So what advice would you give them?

Yahya  47:47
Yeah, that's a very good question. I know members in our community, not everyone is working in Islamic school, even within the ISLA network, other people that I've communicated with, so that is something that comes up, and it can be very difficult to navigate, you're right, your livelihood could be at risk, and also with your children in the public school system. So there's not an easy answer to that. And sometimes you have to make a difficult decision, too, if you can, and that might mean moving that school, it might mean moving that job, if possible. Sometimes it's not, but really that, because if your deen is being compromised, again, it's doing what is pleasing to Allah. And we know that rizq (sustenance) comes from Allah too. So it is making that intention to be in an environment where I can practice my deen. 

Now, when that's not possible, that can be really tricky to navigate. And I know a lot of people have struggled with that. It's not easy. It's not easy at all. And I don't know what the right answer is in that case. But I know, for myself, I was very intentional in working in an environment, in an Islamic school. I had other options, yes, but I was very intentional about that, because I want to be in a place where I can feel safe, I can express myself, I can be in an Islamic environment. So I think that speaks to it. Also, making Islamic schools more accessible as well, and hopefully parents will see the value in that too, of being in an Islamic school. Because with public schools now, we're losing more and more rights, in many ways, but if you have to be there, one must be educated about their rights, and we still do have, in the US, the First Amendment rights of religious freedom, and so that still applies, in some cases, where you can opt out of things and where you have to have those rights respected, but that is shifting very quickly. So it is something, as a community, we need to look at, too. It's not an easy situation. Definitely not. So may Allah make it easy for those people that are in those types of situations. 

In terms of, for parents and educators how we deal with this matter, it is very important to have a multi-disciplinary approach within our schools, and that includes involving counselors, educators, staff, therapists, parents, the school board or the governing board. It also involves looking at the curriculum, and including within that a multidisciplinary approach, trauma awareness, being trauma-informed, a proper understanding of principles of practice within a Qur’anic worldview, understanding the nuances of the secular worldview as well, so that that can be unpacked, and also a historical overview of this issue. And these are all things that we've put together in our six-week course. So, all of that is part of really unpacking and understanding this issue, and involving the wider community in the work of tarbiyah. So, it is important to be aware of that as well. 

Waheed  51:10
And again, we will add, inshaAllah, some resources in the episode description for parents and educators as well to check out and to reach out in case they're going through particular issues, or they'd like more resources on particular topics, inshaAllah.

51:30
Last summer, we conducted a survey with members of the Straight Struggle online support group, and we've asked them to fill in anonymously, to provide their answers to a lot of questions that are addressed to parents and family members, Imams and community leaders, and spouses, as well as educators and administrators like yourself. And I'm going to read out the answers that we got on the section that is targeting the educators, administrators and teachers, and so on. And the question was, “What would you like to tell teachers, educators and school administrators who deal with students struggling with same-sex attractions and/or gender dysphoria? What would you wish to tell your own teachers if you had the chance?” The way that I hope we can tackle this particular section of the episode is, I'm going to read particular answers from members, and these are all anonymized, and you and I can discuss them, you can share your thoughts on them, what resonates with you, what are the things that are done nowadays that you would like to tell us that are taken to kind of remedy whatever issues we're dealing with, or maybe some food for thought, anything that you would like to share, we'd love to hear it inshaAllah. Those are the answers from members from the Straight Struggle support group. One member said, “Love them, don't judge them. Don't make their life more difficult than what it already is. Provide a healthy space for them to talk and express their feelings and struggle without fear or judgment.” Very simple yet profound contribution. What do you think about that?

Yahya  53:09
Yeah. First of all, let me say, jazak Allah khair to everyone that shared these responses, they were very powerful. And, in fact, I shared them with both of our educator workgroups, and they were also very appreciative to be able to hear the responses. And they were really powerful, so I just want to start by thanking everyone that did share this advice for educators. So, absolutely, that's speaking to the compassion [from the 3 C’s]. And so many times, often, students are turned away when they've come, maybe not with that intention, but just from a lack of understanding, and so, when we look at this issue, it is always approaching it from this place of understanding and compassion that, if a student does come, it is that work of murabbi, the nurturer of souls. So we do have to be in that mindset, when someone comes struggling with this particular challenge, to be that murabbi, and to be supportive, to provide that unconditional love, listening ear, and then to know the resources that are available, because you don't have to have all the answers or all the resources, but it's building that relationship and that trust that is so important.

Waheed  54:29
Absolutely. Jazak Allah khair. The second answer comes from a member, and this is actually the longest contribution, I'm going to read it, he/she says, “Realize that same-sex attractions (SSA) and gender identity disorder (GID) are generally not chosen; most Muslims experiencing them will likely be very conflicted on the inside given Allah's prohibition of same-sex behaviors and things like gender transitioning. Also, realize that SSA and GID are usually surface manifestations of much deeper emotional and psychological issues. (It is currently not "politically correct" to think this, but those who have done their homework know.) Make yourselves a safe person for such students to turn to for support, a shoulder to lean on, a sympathetic ear. This should not, of course, entail approving haram actions, such as same-sex behaviors/ relationships or gender transitioning (whether chemical, surgical, or even just social). Carefully and tactfully guide students under your care to resources like A Way Beyond the Rainbow, where they can explore all aspects of what they are experiencing in an objective and spiritually informed manner grounded in truth rather than propaganda. Know that the LGBT narrative in society is very strong, and most young people today (whether they experience SSA/GID or not) have been thoroughly indoctrinated into that perspective through ceaseless overt and subliminal messaging. A person experiencing SSA/GID is as much, if not more, a victim of this narrative as anyone else. Try to point them to a better way, but be patient if they don't simply change their entire perspective overnight. Most importantly -- as teachers, educators, and school administrators -- you absolutely MUST DO YOUR HOMEWORK on this issue. Schools are being relentlessly targeted to adopt the pro-LGBT narrative, which is supported by a lot of lies, half-truths, and false notions. If you are a teacher or school administrator, you absolutely CANNOT AFFORD to be ignorant on this issue. It will take time, but you MUST educate yourself on this topic in a proper manner. Alhamdulillah, the Muslim community now has excellent resources on these issues, including A Way Beyond the Rainbow podcast, the writings of Br. Mobeen Vaid, the MuslimMatters article by Br. Yousef, and others. The iman of the children under your care is being seriously affected by this issue. Do not dismiss it as irrelevant, but be careful when addressing it NOT to adopt the language and categories in terms of which LGBT advocates have framed the narrative. That discourse will eat you up, and there will be no Islam left at the end of it. Again, just like you expect of your students, you need to DO YOUR HOMEWORK on this issue. No one working with youth can anymore afford to be ill-informed on or to adopt a simplistic and superficial approach to this topic.” MashaAllah, it's very comprehensive. What do you think about this?

Yahya  57:22
Yes, MashaAllah. It's very concise, comprehensive and touches on many of the points that we've made and definitely need to be reinforced. Certainly, this point of doing the homework is where we've been behind, and really understanding the issue, and that's what we've been trying to do with our working groups, and the six-week course we put together for educators, so that they really can unpack this issue. It's been incredibly beneficial to myself as well, and that a lot of the resources mentioned there, that was my own journey, too, of coming to understand it; Mobeen’s work, the podcast, MuslimMatters. So, yes, all those resources are there, and it is a must for educators to do this work. And like I said, as they do it, one’s yaqeen, I think, will be increased in the process too, of seeing how this connects to our worldview, and how Islam does provide these answers, and that will then allow us to help guide students too. Now we don't need, again, to have all the answers, but we have to have a basic understanding of the complexity and the depth of this issue. Because, as the member mentions here, it is the tip of the iceberg. There's a lot else going on there, and, mashaAllah, with the podcast, those resources are there around trauma, for example, to really do that work. So knowing those resources are out there is very important. But yes, we have to start with doing that homework, understanding the issue, and being prepared. We can't afford not to anymore, as the member says.

Waheed  58:55
Absolutely. And then some other members, again, going back to the topic of compassion, one said “Teachers should not discriminate against such students and should create a safe environment for them where they aren't bullied, and to educate others on SSA and gender dysphoria.” And another member said, “Similarly, your student who has SSA needs your understanding and support and will be desperate for someone to understand what they are going through without judgment. Just be there for them, offer to hear them out and recommend counseling or therapy, or be there to listen to them expressing their agony and opening up about the feelings.” And another member said, “Advocate for students who are isolated from their classmates, engage them more, you may not get positive feedback, but it still means the world.” And another member said, “There are children who are struggling with child abuse or who have struggled in the past. There are people struggling with sexuality and often they may be those you would least expect. Nourish an open atmosphere, and ideally have a chaplain or someone who children feel comfortable speaking to confidentially, but the topic of LGBTQ needs to be brought up explicitly, and signposting needs to be explicit for many to come forward. Saying that you can talk about anything will, in many people's heads, not include such sensitive topics unless explicitly stated. And other member said, “Be supportive and make sure you get rid of any bullying.” So I think that these are general recommendations from us to educators and community leaders and teachers like yourself. Any words that you'd like to share with us with regards to that? 

Yahya  1:00:34
Yes. Jazak Allah khair. I think all of these speak to that need of being a murabbi, being a nurturer of souls, of compassion, of having that type of atmosphere in the school, so that students do feel safe, that they are able to come and listen. That is essential, and building those relationships of trust, so that students can feel comfortable sharing, explaining and offering guidance and support, too. And, again, one doesn't need to have all of the answers, but to start with that place of compassion, of unconditional love, of knowing that this is a Muslim brother/sister who is struggling, and having that type of space and environment is essential. So I think those are really important messages for educators. Absolutely.

Waheed  1:01:28
Absolutely, yeah. Jazak Allah khair. Other members were speaking from a place of principle as in encouraging educators to stay principled. So, one member said “Stand firm on principles, we need to hear the truth from people we trust to give us the tools and facts so that we can make informed decisions about what we are dealing with.” And another member was going on a full rant, “Stop condoning this stuff, stop exposing children to LGBT stuff, keep them innocent, keep the children pure, do not arouse those feelings in them by exposing this avenue to them. Stop exposing LGBT stuff to children, stop bringing drag queens to elementary schools”, which is unfortunately happening, “Stop reading gender bending stories to children, this actually does trigger gender dysphoria in children, stop forcing homosexuality down student's throats, stop using LGBT language and start teaching the truth. Binary in our biology exists. And yes, a male is a boy and a female is a girl, no amount of surgery will change that.” So, yeah, this is not targeted obviously to Muslim educators, but in general to educators who are dealing with this. What do you think about that?

Yahya  1:02:38
Yeah, well, part of that speaks to what I mentioned before, of trying to scaffold the fitrah as much as possible, the first part of that last comment you shared, and so really being aware of the material they're exposed to. But yes, on the public school level, it is really unbelievable how much this agenda is being pushed. And so, we do, as Muslims, and really as people that come from a faith-based perspective, need to push back on that. And there is work being done, I know, in that area, but more of that needs to happen. And that's where we need to be more on the offensive. We've sat back, especially as Muslims, for too long. Otherwise, it's relentless. It is relentless. So, I feel that frustration in the person that shared that. Absolutely. So, the other comments, absolutely, that's it, conviction and clarity, of knowing what our principles are, and that's some work that we've been doing in the group and a resource that I'd be happy to share, as well, of looking at what are our principles of practice around this issue, and we do have very clear principles, and we need to be firm on them. Absolutely.

Waheed  1:03:50
Right, inshaAllah. Absolutely. And another member said, “For teachers, I'd like to say that your words matter quite as much as parents’. Your role as educators is pretty much entailed with your role as mentors and upbringing of anyone with SSA or gender dysphoria. What you say and the knowledge you will bring to the table are primordial sources that will be carried on throughout all of the child's life. Your duty is to bring the proper education forward, to raise awareness among children and their parents, and to act as a support, a listening ear, and a shoulder to cry on. Your words and your silence will play a crucial role in what your student is going to consider to be ‘normal’ or ‘abnormal’ about themselves.” I think that's very poignant and very relevant to our discussion. What do you think about this particular comment?

Yahya  1:04:43
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That, again, speaks to the sacred role of a Muslim teacher as murabbi and mu’allim, again, that nurturer and conveyor of knowledge. That is a huge ‘amanah (trust), it's a huge responsibility, and so we need to take it with that level of seriousness, that this is a sacred duty, and we will have that impact on students. Absolutely.

Waheed  1:05:12
Absolutely. Alhamdulillah. And then the last survey answer by a member, he/she said “Awareness is key. Listen to this podcast, educate yourself about faith, aqeedah, psychology, educate yourself more about complex trauma, complex PTSD, attention-deficit disorder, attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder and dissociative identity disorders, among others, especially compassion-focused and dialectical behavioral and acceptance commitment therapies. You can be a good supporter if you let less sporty guys explore their potentials in sport, and let them learn the traits that are not predetermined, but are opportunities to learn from and improve. Have unconditional love and acceptance, and be a good father alternative to your students, especially those who are physically or emotionally deprived from a father. Again, shame and disgust are not good indicators for a child, because that could lead him to homosexuality.” I think that he/she is kind of referring to the understanding of the male SSA, where a lot of men who struggle with SSA, as children, they did not identify with their father, they were more recluse, they did not engage in sports or rough-and-tumble play, they felt more inferior towards members of the same sex, and so they did not engage with other boys at school. They're more sensitive, and probably there might be comorbid traumas as well. Hence, what he/she talked about in terms of complex trauma, ADD, ADHD, DID, and so on. So I think that this brother or sister is trying to raise awareness on the idea that it's very important for educators to have an awareness of these topics, to have some sort of grounding in psychology as well, as well as aqeedah and faith, and to kind of spot these red flags, so to speak, and to help that individual, because, otherwise, maybe no one else would notice them, and he/she would be struggling in silence.

Yahya  1:07:17
Yeah, absolutely. And that speaks to what we've touched on previously, that this is a very multi-layered issue, that SSA is often just the tip of the iceberg. And so that type of awareness and understanding is also essential to have, at least that awareness, not to necessarily be an expert in all of these areas, but to know that it has that layer of complexity, and, therefore, the person is going to need that support to work through the issue. 

Waheed  1:07:55
Okay, so something that has been recently happening in a lot of the schools around the world, particularly in the West, is this idea of encouraging people to come out and to celebrate the diverse sexual and gender identities, and so on. How do we, as students, as educators, deal with this? How do we deal with students “coming out” in our schools, or questioning their gender, or wanting to be addressed with particular pronouns (particularly if these go against their biological sex)? What is the appropriate way of dealing with this in our schools? Whether it's a secular school, and then I can ask you as well when it comes to like Islamic schools.

Yahya  1:08:39
Yeah, sure. So this question has come up a number of times in our working groups. And, you know, it depends, I think, on what state the student comes in. There are some students that come in very strongly promoting this worldview, this identity, and demanding, even at Islamic schools, that this be recognized and respected and so forth. Now, some schools, probably not many, but they're looking at their policy, too. So what are their policy statements around this? What is accepted around issues of gender and sexuality, in terms of identity pronouns and speaking about the topic? So that is one thing we're looking at, but another principle to be aware of, and this comes from the principles of Islamic pedagogy, is starting where the student is at, too. 

Now, a mistake that I think is often made is that some schools will just reject them automatically, and participants shared stories of that where the student was just kicked out, or it got to a point where they moved schools, and, therefore, the issue is never really addressed. There's also looking at the public realm and the private realm. This is another important piece of this question, too. Whether they're school wide, you know, I know of cases where the student might be coming in and demanding this amongst the school, on a very public level. There's another type of a person who’d come in that's really struggling with this, and it’s a private matter, and is really looking for guidance and support. And so those are two different approaches that one has to take as a school. 

So, many schools now have requested looking at a policy document, and I will say that the name of the group – and we can also link this up perhaps - but it's the Christian Legal Society, they put together sample and model policies for religious schools and colleges that have guidance on issues around sexuality and gender. So this can help on one hand, but in terms of dealing with the student, again, it is really important to kind of determine where they're coming in, and at what level they're at. And we can look to the prophetic model of this as well, the prophetic pedagogical approach, which is starting where that person is at, and knowing where they need to get. And this can be challenging to navigate. But it's, again, having that background knowledge too, of trying to direct them to a correct understanding. But, again, we know that doesn't happen overnight, either. So it may take time. 

It may be the case where the person is saying “I am a gay Muslim. That's how I want to densify. But I'm not acting on this, either.” And I know that you've touched on this as well a bit, in some of your podcasts and writing, in terms of that's where they're at. So how can I then say, “Well, no, that's haram!” They're not acting on it. But we can help them see that why that type of framing is problematic, of identifying in that way, and that gets to the identity paradigm, and we're trying to shift to an Islamic paradigm, where we separate actions, [feelings] and identity. So that is important. That can be one approach, in this case, if the person is ready for that. It really depends on kind of what attitude they come in with, where they're at. But our ultimate goal is to help direct them on the right path, towards healing and understanding, and also, once that is accepted, it really can be, I know, as you have shared, liberating to move away from that type of identity framework. 

And, again, it depends here now if it's an Islamic school, if it's a secular school, but it's knowing that we want to help direct this person to the correct path and give them the resources, but also, again, being patient, being compassionate, but also being firm, too. We don't want to go to the point, as one of the members gave in the feedback, of giving a full affirmation either. So, it is a tricky balance, and that's where understanding that complexity comes in, and knowing how to guide that student. So, there's not often just one answer, but there are multiple approaches that can be taken, depending on how that student presents the issue, whether it's privately or publicly in the school, whether it's an Islamic school or secular school. So each of those would potentially have a slightly different approach, but with that overall goal to guide them to a correct Islamic understanding, to help them on that journey, starting with wherever it is they're at.

Waheed  1:13:38
Right. Absolutely. And I think that, in Islamic schools, you have more authority, because you have your own curriculum, at least, you have your own bylaws and rules. So it's very clear where you're coming from, but for someone who is in a public school in the west, or a secular institution, then it becomes very tricky, because the teacher cannot say anything, otherwise he/she will get fired maybe, or it might even be worse, or the student cannot really do much, with regards to, I mean, they might be advising his/her classmate who is struggling with SSA or gender dysphoria, let's say. But there's so much that you can do before you are labeled a “bigot” or a “homophobe”, or maybe end up being sued and such. 

So, it's kind of tricky, I think, subhan Allah, nowadays, it's like walking on eggshells, because something is about to, you know, the other shoe might drop, as they say, or something bad is going to happen if you end up crossing particular boundaries or being politically incorrect and going against the “woke” culture again. But yeah, subhan Allah, I think that, as far as what can be done, educate yourself on the matter and check out the resources that we've added in the episode description, and reach out to us, to Br. Yahya or the ISLA group, because other educators and teachers have spoken about this, and they have the resources to share and some advice. 

I remember that you shared with us an email thread that you got from a student who did not feel comfortable participating in Pride Month, the activities that were done, if I'm not mistaken, I mean, you can correct me if I'm wrong. She was reaching out to you or to your colleagues, because she wanted to respectfully decline participating in these events, and she was in a public school in the US. So this is one of the examples, like students are afraid of actually speaking their truth, or staying true to their beliefs. How would you navigate that, just as an example?

Yahya  1:15:47
Yeah, thanks for sharing that example, that did come up in our group, and it was something that we discussed and looked at how we might advise her. And some educators had thought, you know, if she was comfortable, this would be a great chance to present an Islamic view on this issue. And so, giving her those resources to do that. And that's a real opportunity. That was one approach. Another is, you know, in this case, I think she asked how could she respectfully opt out of it and not be forced to do it. And so, obviously, kind of advising her on how she might approach the professor on this or asking for an alternative assignment. That was another piece that came up. But really, it presents that opportunity to show the Islamic view, and really to stand strong on one's principles, and that itself can be a really liberating and powerful experience and informing too, and doing it in a way, again, that is firm but respectful. 

I think the other issue, and I don't know if that was in any of the questions, but when I was first coming to look at this issue and understand it, and you and I have discussed this, too, that often what you find on YouTube is this kind of shouting and yelling, and “us versus them”, and that doesn't lead to anything productive in my experience. So, being able to have that space where we can have a respectful discussion about principles is really important, and having that resource as an alternative too, because so much of what is out there is just this shouting and yelling, and really a lot of nafs is involved, a lot of ego. And that's not helpful. So, yes, I think if we can encourage youth like this girl to take a stand there and really look at - as many of us have gone through that process ourselves - what does Islam some say about this, and then that experience will build that yaqeen, build that confidence, where I can speak out on this issue, and I can stake out my grounds, too, in that environment that may be very hostile.

Waheed  1:17:59
Yeah, for sure. And, again, you're not alone. We’ve mentioned this over and over. You're not alone, you're not dealing with this alone. First and foremost, you have Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala. So that's important to take into account, that we have Him, we are doing this for Him, so He will open the path for us, and secondly, you have others, you have resources, you have Muslims who are dealing with this who can provide you with the help that you need, inshaAllah, so don't be scarce, and don't feel afraid of reaching out, please do. Don't hesitate. 

Yahya  1:18:24
Absolutely. 

Waheed  1:18:33
Maybe I can ask you in a more personal/practical approach, like you, as Br. Yahya, as a school administrator, as a teacher, and you're dealing with the youth of today in a very cosmopolitan region. And there's a lot of exposure to the media, it's very media-driven, etc. How do we educate the youth of today on the Islamic stance when it comes to gender and sexuality issues, particularly when the media has already entrenched these narratives in the minds of today's youth? So, almost like the majority of kids and adolescents nowadays, they have access to social media, particularly TikTok, and now there's like “Gay TikTok” that's very popular. And, you know, they have a lot of these gay-affirming pages and influencers, and it's becoming more and more entrenched. And, nowadays, you have those trans-affirming influencers and people who encourage people to question their gender identity or sexual orientation, and it's “woke” to be different and so on. 

So when you're programmed early on with this narrative, it becomes very difficult to overcome it. And, again, going back to the issue of belonging, you don't want to stick out and feel that you're alienated or different from the crowd. Subhan Allah, the tables have turned so much that when we speak the truth nowadays, we're the ones labeled as “bigots” and “homophobes” and “transphobic” and “backwards” and “stupid, etc. So how do we encourage people - it's very difficult for the youth of today, I can understand that, like, for me, it's very difficult, but even the younger generations, the programming has been going on for quite some time. So, how do you personally deal with this in your school, when you have these young people, and you want to educate them on Islamic sexual ethics and gender norms, and gender and sexuality issues within Islam, knowing very well that they're exposed to this whole world of LGBT-affirming media, whether Netflix, social media, TikTok, everywhere you look, practically everything is kind of affirming that? How do you argue with them, or how do you kind of practice that compassionate yet - like the two C's, compassion and conviction with your students, or even their parents, if they are coming from that paradigm?

Yahya  1:21:13
Yeah. Allahul musta’an (we seek help from Allah). And I'm often telling this to parents, when I talk to them, not specifically about this issue, but we are in a time of really increasing fitnah and the Prophet (PBUH) warned us about this time to come, that Islam started as something strange, and it will return to that. And holding on to the deen is like holding on to a hot coal. And another hadith that I read in Abdal-Hakim Murad’s recent book in which the Prophet said (paraphrased), “There will come a time where, if you are doing, you know, 1/10th of what is upon the Sunnah, you will be saved.” At that time, it was nine tenths. So, he recognized that these challenges would come, and we may not have reached that point yet. 

The point of that is, yes, we are in very challenging times, there's no doubt about that. And so, we do have to do what we can with what we have. How do I approach it at my school? Again, it’s in a very different context than the US, and it's actually very limited right now. But I always try to share some of my personal experience and story when I meet with students, especially the high school students, to show them how Islam is central to my identity, how it frames how I look at every issue. And when questions do come up, I try to answer them honestly, and have the nuance there, too, whether it's around a dress code, or whether it's around some show they've seen, and challenging them, and then also giving them that space to share their opinion, because sometimes students are shut down right away, or these topics, a lot of times, in Islamic schools are not even allowed. So we have to look at having that space where they can have these discussions. 

And, on that point, I'll just share that there was a survey we did in a workshop with a youth group in the US, and we asked them, a group of around, I think, over 100 young adult women, where did they get their knowledge around this issue of sexuality and gender? Where was it discussed? Well, it wasn't at home, almost none, it wasn't in the masjid, it wasn't at school. It often even wasn't with Muslim friends. It was with non-Muslim friends or on social media. So that's where they're getting all of this information. If we don't provide any alternative space or material, then we're going to lose them, and that's what's happening. This will be of our time, and may Allah protect and preserve all of our children, all of us, this will be one of those doors that, sadly, many people may enter through, of kufr, you know, of losing their deen. And I've seen, I'm sure you have, too, unfortunately. May Allah protect our youth and guide us, and may we hold fast to the rope of Allah, because that is the only sure hold during this time. 

So it's not easy. It's not easy. Really, it's not. I experienced that, absolutely, in my own life and my own work, but we have to start if we haven't yet. And we have to know what we have. Yes, we don't have all of the resources that the other side has. We don't have the political connections. We don't have all of these resources, but we do have - I mentioned this at the beginning to our working group - we have Al-Haqq. We have Al-Haqq. and this is where that tawakkul comes in and trusting Allah if we do our part. Another hadith I often turn to is the one [that says] “Tie your camel first, and then put your trust in Allah.” So do what we can. Yes, we need to look at our curriculum; yes, we need to look at how we discuss this issue at our homes, in our schools, in our communities. And then we have to put our trust in Allah too, because it can be very overwhelming. But, as another brother said to me, we have to start with where we're at, and we have to start with what we have. And, alhamdulillah, now we are building this resource base, this network, this community, and so we have to start pushing back, and we have to start really preparing our youth, as much as possible, because the torrents will continue to come. 

Waheed  1:25:42
Exactly. And may Allah help us all, inshaAllah, and keep us steadfast. 

1:25:55
I know we have touched upon this earlier, but we know that there's a lot - I'm trying to be optimistic - there are some things that are lacking for us as Muslims. And again, you and I spoke about this before, we said that the Christians and the Jewish and other religious communities are way ahead compared to the Muslim communities, particularly in the West. And, you know, even they're more politically active, and they are supportive of their own communities. Within their communities, they have their own organizations that help individuals with same-sex attractions or gender dysphoria. Of course, they deal with a lot of backlash, but they're still trying as much as they can. So, for you, as Br. Yahya, you know, as an educator, as an administrator, as a teacher, and someone who's been active in assembling all of these resources with multiple teams, what is your experience in comparison, like, where do we stand, as Muslims? Just give us a general overview, if you will, where we stand as Muslim communities as compared to the other religious communities, as far as this is concerned, as far as the issue of LGBT narrative, and the lobbying that takes place, as well as what we have to do as Muslims to actually get to that level of having the adequate resources and mentorship, and to get to a place where we are adequate, as far as helping people who struggle with these issues? 

Yahya  1:27:28
Yes, there is undoubtedly a lot of work to do, as I've mentioned, but I do feel optimistic. And we know that’s the way of our Prophet (PBUH) too, as well, of optimism, and there is a lot of good work going on right now. So I do want to share some of that with you for our listeners as well, that there is definitely reason to be optimistic, and to know that the work has been going on and started, and it's hopefully going to continue. And I'll just give one really positive example of that. With our working groups for educators, and ISLA tries to provide professional development and professional learning, and that's one of my roles there as the Community Development Associate is to look at what are the needs of the community, and then to put together those professional learning opportunities. Now the one which we titled “Addressing LGBTQ issues in our schools and communities” first started with a group, a small group in the US of about 20 or 30, the next group around 40, and then we opened it up on a global level, and we had over 100 educators responded to sign up from Australia, from Canada, and then so many that we had to cap it, and will now be opening up a second international cohort with a big demand from South Africa. So, there has been a real awakening here, alhamdulillah, that we need to address this issue, and everyone is looking for these resources. 

Now, I think the podcast is an exceptional one, mashaAllah, it's so comprehensive, and that I have not seen in any other faith community, the comprehensiveness of what, mashaAllah, you and those that have supported to put the podcast together, Alhamdulillah. And that's a huge resource for our community that I try to share, as much as possible, because I know how valuable that is and how needed it is. 

Now, some of the work that we've done as a group, we've looked at principles of practice, that's been one of our projects. Another one recently is starting to look at policy frameworks that schools can use to help guide their policy decisions. And then, of course, this course I mentioned, which is a six-week course that really looks at unpacking this issue, building an Islamic framework, and then looking for practical ways we can use this knowledge in our communities, in our schools, to help educators, parents, and students really understand this issue and then address it effectively. Alhamdulillah.

We also put together a document of resources, too, because when we first started out, it was a lot of things that were scattered. So we put together a document of resources, links, videos, articles, a lot of it has been addressed on your podcast. So the podcast, I feel, really, in many ways is kind of a “one stop shop”, mashaAllah, for a lot of these issues and an incredible resource for the community, MashaAllah and alhamdulillah. 

So that being said, the work continues, absolutely. And we hope to continue at ISLA offering the six-week course, and then looking and responding to the needs of educators globally. But that network is really coming together. And that's been part of my larger work, as I mentioned, and project of building that global Ummah of Muslim educators for this work of Islamic school renewal, and this issue is part of that. But there's much more too that's included in that renewal process. So Alhamdulillah, good progress has been made, and will continue to be made, inshaAllah, with Allah’s guidance and support. And so, there is reason for optimism, and we always have to have that approach, because that was the way of our Prophet (PBUH). 

Waheed  1:31:35
Absolutely. Absolutely. Subhan Allah. I'm very happy to hear about all of these wonderful projects and achievements, and may Allah put a lot of barakah in your efforts and a lot of tawfeeq. And, subhan Allah, it just reminds us that even though that these are difficult times that we're living in, very challenging, but once you strive for the sake of Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala, he opens the right doors, he puts you in touch with the right people, because, ultimately, what matters is Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala, regardless of whatever happens in our lives, no matter how challenging these times are, this is what ultimately matters, right? And everything else is just noise. Background noise. Yeah.

Yahya  1:32:13
Yes. That's it. That's it. I'm looking at my office right now, Br. Waheed, and up above me is a saying we have amongst some of the brothers here, it says, “Another day in the dunya striving for Al-Akhirah”. And that's what it is. That perspective helps so much, knowing that whatever we face here, it is a test. And, in the end, Allah has told us it is but like one day, or maybe even one hour. So, we know, as Muslims, we can have that long perspective, too, to say that, yes, this is part of this testing ground, but our ultimate reward, the Akhirah, is our ultimate goal. And there's so much, as I mentioned, that spiritual technology of resources in book, the Qur’an, of knowing that Allah does not give us more than we can handle, that for every difficulty, there's ease that comes [with] that. And knowing that Allah is the All-Powerful, the One Who sees and hears. Ar-Rahman, Ar-Raheem. So, alhamdulillah, this is such a great blessing to be Muslim, and I feel that so strongly, having come to the faith, having been guided, because those answers are there. And we are blessed, we are so blessed, because so many others have not found that path yet. So, alhamdulillah.

Waheed  1:33:37
Indeed. Alhamdulillah. May Allah guide us all and protects us, inshaAllah. Barak Allah feek for mentioning all of that.  

And another point that you and I discussed before was the issue of “proper representation”, that, unfortunately, when it comes to like the LGBT, or any other issue really that is kind of contentious and problematic within our communities, you have people who speak up, but unfortunately, they come from this perspective of black-or-white thinking, shouting, being angry, you know, online personalities that may cause further rifts. And this is not what we need, you know, we need people who speak up who are courteous, but they are firm on their convictions, they’re well aware of the nuances. You know, as you said, the 3 C's - I love that, because it captures that very beautifully: You need to have the clarity on the issue, you need to have the knowledge and the resources, you need to have the conviction to stay firm, but you also need to have the compassion to address that with nuance and empathy. So, yeah, subhan Allah, I just wanted to mention this, because you and I have talked about this while preparing the episode. So this needs to be taken into account, subhan Allah.

Yahya  1:34:48
Yes, absolutely. You've said it so perfectly, Br. Waheed, that we need more people speaking that are balanced in this approach, that have that depth of understanding, and that can represent the Islamic view, with akhlaq and adab, with that correct kind of respect. That is what will move people, I think, that's what has the potential to melt hearts, when it's spoken from that place of compassion, of genuineness and of real respect. And that's been my experience. And those are the voices that I try to listen to.

Waheed  1:35:29
Alhamdulillah. May Allah make us among these voices inshaAllah. 

Yahya  1:35:30
Ameen! Ameen! 

Waheed  1:35:40
So, you mentioned the projects and the resources that you've been working on. InshaAllah, we'll add a lot of these in the episode description, so please make sure to check them out, as well as contact information for a lot of these organizations. You already addressed this, like where do we hope to get and the future plans, do you want to add anything to that?

Yahya  1:36:00
Yeah, in terms of the future plans, I think I mentioned some of this, about the continuation of the course, and if there are listeners that are interested in the course, certainly, they can get in touch. Really, we're happy to share our resources that we put together and continue to build this global movement of educators and parents and community members to help prepare the next generation of Muslim youth. So, I definitely welcome anyone to get in touch, and we will continue to do this work, inshaAllah, God willing, and may He give us that opportunity, and to continue to make the connections and build on the resources that are already there, inshaAllah.

Waheed  1:36:45
InshaAllah. So if anyone would like to get in touch with you or with the ISLA group, how can they get in touch with you? 

Yahya  1:36:55
Sure, so I'll be happy to provide my ISLA email, and we'll be happy to elaborate on anything I've mentioned today, and share as well the resources and some of the course material, and course information for future courses, too, that we're hoping to provide educators. So, absolutely, anyone is welcome to reach out to me at any time. 

Waheed  1:37:19
So, inshaAllah, we'll add Br. Yahya’s email to the transcript of this episode (yvanrooy@theisla.org), which you can find on our website awaybeyondtherainbow.buzzsprout.com, inshaAllah. And you can reach out to Br. Yahya with any questions or any ideas that you have, or if you want to sign up to help with any of the ongoing projects, inshaAllah. 

Br. Yahya, barak Allah feek, this has been really a wonderful episode. I enjoyed listening to you and learning so much from you. Thank you for your courage, your vulnerability and all of your wonderful insights. May Allah bless you and increase you and give you a lot of strength and barakah in your work and the work of ISLA and all of the Muslim educators who are working with you, inshaAllah. This is much needed work, so may Allah continue to give you barakah and a lot of blessings in what you do, and may it be, inshaAllah, a sadaqah jariyah (ongoing act of charity) on your behalf and on behalf of everyone who is involved. Any last words that you would like to share with us? Any last messages for anyone listening to you today?

Yahya  1:38:18
Ameen, wa jazak Allah khair, too, for all the work you've been doing, Br. Waheed and your team, it's benefited me very much on a personal level and in the professional work I do. So I want to express that gratitude as well. Alhamdulillah.  

As I said, we just finished the six weeks with our international cohort, and I just mentioned there, at the end, this time that we're in, the importance of holding fast to the rope of Allah. Holding fast to the rope of Allah, because that is the only sure hold that we have. And, alhamdulillah, that we have that. So, I pray that Allah makes it easy for all of us in this time, that He keeps us firm on this path, and that He guides us to correct understanding and correct action. And I just like to close as we've closed every session that I've been part of with the ISLA group around this issue, which is closing with Surat Al-Asr, which is such a powerful Surah, so I would just like to close by reciting this. 

"وَالْعَصْر - إِنَّ الْإِنْسَانَ لَفِيْ خُسْر - إِلَّا الَّذِيْنَ آمَنُوْا وَعَمِلُوا الصّٰلِحٰتِ وَتَوَاصَوْا بِالْحَقِّ وَتَوَاصَوْا بِالصَّبْرِ"

“By time - Indeed, mankind is in loss - Except for those who have believed and done righteous deeds and advised each other to truth and advised each other to patience” (Qur’an, 103:1-3). So, yes, may Allah make us amongst those who hold fast to the Truth, who enjoin what is right, and who are those of patience, of sabr.

Waheed  1:40:15
Ameen, ameen. Barak Allah feek, Br. Yahya, jazakom Allah khairan! 

Yahya  1:40:19
Wa jazak, wa jazak. 

Waheed  1:40:29
And with this, we have come to the end of today's episode, and I hope that you guys have enjoyed it and found it beneficial, inshaAllah. Don't forget to check out the resources that we've added in the show notes. And if you need any further information, you can always email me on awaybeyondtherainbow(AT)gmail(DOT)com. In the next episode, Imam Dawud Walid from the US is going to be joining me in an episode that is dedicated to Imams, chaplains and community leaders, inshaAllah. Until then, stay safe and healthy. This has been Waheed Jensen in “A Way Beyond the Rainbow”, assalamu alaikom warahmatullahi ta’ala wabarakatuh.