#12 - On Richard Cohen's Four Stage Model

In this season finale, Mr. Richard Cohen, author of Coming Out Straight: Understanding Same-Sex Attraction joins me in an intense yet heartwarming discussion of the four areas and four stages of healing that he outlines in his book, as part of a comprehensive and holistic plan to healing and growth. We dissect, in details, the different stages from grounding and transitioning to healing homo- and hetero-emotional wounds, in line with the the psychology of SSA covered in previous episodes. We also address commonly-asked questions towards the end of the episode, with some uplifting messages from Richard to men and women with SSA, as well as parents and family members. A very rewarding and humbling talk, not to be missed!

Links to resources mentioned in the episode:

- Coming Out Straight: Understanding Same-Sex Attraction by Richard Cohen
- TED Talk: "The Great Porn Experiment" by Gary Wilson
- Recovery of Your Inner Child by Lucia Capacchione
- Positive Approaches to Healthy Sexuality Organization
- Ten Days to Self-Esteem by David Burns
- Joel 2:25 Organization
- Time, Touch and Talk Organization
- Straight Struggle Discord Platform

Chapters

• 0:38 Episode Introduction
• 5:45 On Temperamental Predisposition
• 12:27 The Journey of Richard Cohen
• 20:53 The Four Areas and Stages of Healing SSA
• 28:51 Stage 1: Transitioning
• 46:46 Stage 2: Grounding
• 55:35 The Inner Family: Child, Parent and Adult
• 1:06:10 HALTS Acronym to Identify Triggers
• 1:26:23 Stage 3: Healing Homo-Emotional Wounds
• 1:45:06 Stage 4: Healing Hetero-Emotional Wounds
• 1:51:44 Question: Lack of Access to Therapy?
• 1:54:42 Question: Lack of Support System/Mentors?
• 1:59:25 Question: Promises of Therapy Success?
• 2:02:45 Question: What If I Can't Forgive My Parents?
• 2:07:05 Message from Richard Cohen to Parents
• 2:13:17 Richard Cohen's Contact Information
• 2:15:38 Message from Richard Cohen to Men and Women with SSA
• 2:17:42 Ending Remarks

Transcript

Waheed:   0:00
This is Waheed Jensen, and you are listening to "A Way Beyond the Rainbow". Assalamu alaikom wa rahmatullahi ta'ala wa barakatuh, and welcome to the 12th episode of "A Way Beyond the Rainbow", this podcast series dedicated to Muslims struggling with same-sex attractions who want to live a life true to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and Islam. I am your host, Waheed Jensen. Thank you so much for joining me in today's episode. I am very excited to be sharing with you today's special episode. As you know, Mr. Richard Cohen is joining me as a special guest today, and we will be talking about the comprehensive approach to dealing with same-sex attractions, as he has outlined in his book "Coming Out Straight: Understanding Same-Sex Attraction". And towards the end of the episode, we address some frequently asked questions. Just a quick introduction, Mr. Richard Cohen is a psychotherapist, educator and author who travels throughout the United States, Europe, Latin America and the Middle East, teaching about marital relations, communication skills, parenting skills, healing from sexual abuse and understanding gender identity and sexual orientation issues. Over the past 30 years, he has helped hundreds in therapy and thousands through healing seminars. And he has trained over 6,000 physicians, psychologists, counselors and ministry leaders on how to assist individuals dealing with gender identity and sexual orientation concerns. Richard is the author of five books, including "Coming Out Straight: Understanding Same-Sex Attraction", the book that we have cited so many times during this season, as well as "Gay Children, Straight Parents: A Plan for a Family Healing" and his latest book, published in 2019, "Healing Heterosexuality: Time, Touch and Talk". His books have been translated into 12 languages. Richard founded the International Healing Foundation in 1990, and he is currently the president and the co-founder of Positive Approaches to Healing Sexuality, also known as PATH. This organization is based in the Washington D.C., metropolitan area and offers counsel and training programs, family healing sessions, consultations, resource materials and speaking engagements. Richard is a frequent guest lecturer on college and university campuses and at therapeutic and religious conferences. Mr. Cohen, thank you so much for joining me in today's episode. It's such an honor to be speaking to you. I'm one of your biggest fans. I have read your book "Coming Out Straight", and it has really, really made a huge impact on me, a big difference in my life. And I have spoken to a lot of friends who have also read your book, and it has really impacted them in so many different ways. So, God bless you. Thank you so much for all of the amazing, amazing things that you keep on helping the community with, particularly men and women who struggle with same-sex attractions. Thank you so much for doing all that.  

Richard:   3:39
Thank you.

Waheed:   3:40
So your comprehensive approach is really - it hits the nail on the head, as they say, and I I feel that it is very important for people after having been exposed to all of this knowledge so far that we have presented, to kind of, you know, see how it all fits, and to see how we can kind of, you know, cultivate a comprehensive approach on how to deal with that from so many different angles. So, yeah, basically, what I would like us to talk about today is the four stages of healing and the four areas of healing: the intellectual, emotional, physical and spiritual. I have taken lots of notes when I was reading the book, and I have summarized it in a lot of documents. I have my notes ready with me, but obviously it's your discussion. So we can start in whichever way you like. The floor is yours.

Richard:   4:29
First of all, Waheed, thank you very much for this opportunity. I am humbled and grateful, especially to reach out to men and women in the Muslim community that are struggling with unwanted same-sex attraction, knowing full well that it's a very taboo subject in their families, of course, in the community and the culture and in the mosque. And there is not a lot of understanding that they are receiving - these men and women who struggle with unwanted same-sex attraction. So I am grateful to you for creating this vehicle to reach out to these men and women, and happy to participate and share about, as you said, a comprehensive road map of recovery for those who experience unwanted same-sex attraction, which is why I wrote the book about 20 years ago.

Waheed:   5:43
Thank you so much.

Richard:   5:44
Yeah, so the first thing I wanted to share is that, as you've already done in your previous podcasts, broken it down that essentially people according to hard science, they're not born with these attractions or desires. There may be a predisposition based on temperamental issues, but that is not a predetermination that someone may or will develop homosexual feelings. What I and other therapeutic colleagues have observed, is that all men and women who developed same-sex attraction or SSA are hypersensitive. And over the last couple years, there's a book that a female psychologist wrote about highly sensitive children and highly sensitive people. So I've delineated, there's like three levels: there's sensitive people, there's highly sensitive people, and there's hypersensitive people. I think, all of humanity, everyone has sensitivity to one degree or another. Then there's the next level, which is highly sensitive, and people who are highly sensitive experience environments or experience other people more profoundly and deeply than sensitive people. So highly sensitive men and women are very attuned to the people around them and environmental things and sounds and all kinds of factors. Then there's hypersensitive, and those with SSA, almost all men and women experience hypersensitivity as a temperamental, or one might say, a genetic predisposition. And being hypersensitive, we experience family, friends, environment, the culture, the entire community more profoundly than siblings or colleagues and those around us. So being hypersensitive is really a curse/blessing in the world as it exists right now, because many people don't understand that we, who are hypersensitive, I include myself in that category, we feel more deeply, and we experience - again, many people say, "Well, why do I experience SSA and my brothers or my sisters don't" or the other siblings say that of the child who does experience SSA, and it's because, temperamentally, they're very different. So I wanted to mention that first. Secondly, because people are not essentially born with same-sex attraction, it's essentially an emotionally-based condition. It's a lack of gender identity. Now, I'm sure you may have, again, discussed this on a previous podcast, that it's emotionally based, it's a lack of sufficient bonding with the same-sex parent and/or same sex peers, and over-attachment with the opposite-sex parent and/or opposite-sex peers. So it's a gender identity issue. Really, at its basest form, SSA has nothing to do with sex. It's emotionally-based, and it's a hungry heart that hasn't healed, and legitimate unmet love needs. Which is why people can go to the mosque or the church or the synagogue or the temple and pray and pray twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, and God could take the desires away, but He never will, because those desires are connected to those two things: the hurting heart and the legitimate unmet love needs. So, having SSA is not a curse, not from the devil. It's not because the individual has done anything wrong. It's the result of many, you know, factors that you have discussed previously, and this very temperamental character and those wounds and the needs that must be addressed. So, I looked at all the literature when I was, first of all, doing my own healing work, and then when I became a psychotherapist, there was no path of recovery. In fact, I remember being at what used to be called NARTH, now they changed the name, I was at a conference 20-something years ago, and someone asked - I won't say the name of the therapist, he's very famous and well known - and they said, "Is there any clear path or clear plan for healing?" and he said "No." And I just finished writing the book and I wanted to SCREAM at the top of my lungs and saying, "What the **** are you saying?" There IS a path. It's like giving somebody, a child, who's so hungry, no food! So that's why this book was written. It's to give hope, that there is a clear path for healing.

Waheed:   12:04
Absolutely, absolutely. God bless you. And thank you so much for that. Before we start our discussion, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself, and how you have come to the place where you are right now, helping a lot of people who struggle with same-sex attractions? Just a personal introduction from your side if you like.

Richard:   12:27
My name is Richard Cohen, I am a psychotherapist, educator and author. I am a husband. I've been married for 40 years to my wife, Jae Sook, she hails from Korea, South Korea. We have three adult children, and I've been a psychotherapist approximately 33 years now, and it's just been an amazing journey. I NEVER imagined that I would become a therapist. It was not one of my life goals. I had to go through my own - actually, I was an artist manager. I used to tour classical musicians and ballet companies from the US and Europe, all over Asia. I worked in Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, China and Malaysia. And I was very successful, and I was miserable, because I was struggling with my homosexual feelings, and that was incompatible with my faith and my life dream, which was to marry a woman and have children. So I tried desperately to find therapists who understood me, and they didn't have a clue, or they just told me, "Accept it. You're born gay. Just live that life." And then I found one therapist who had written a book called "Overcoming Homosexuality", and I was in therapy with him for about - this was in New York City - about a year and a half. And he could only take me so far. And I attended seminars, literally all over the world. I did anything I could to receive information and healing. And then I got down to my core wounding, and, really, it was like the period at the end of a long sentence. He held me in his arms. I'm a very kinesthetic, tactile man, and I needed a lot of healthy physical touch. And I, through my therapy, recovered the memories of being sexually abused when I was five years old. And this was the first adult that I bonded with, because my father was what I call a "rageaholic", he was angry most of the time, and my mother just held on to me, being her youngest. Neither of them felt safe. And then my uncle, Uncle Pete, moved in. And if people have read the book, I call him Uncle Dave in the in the book, but his name was Uncle Pete. And he was so much fun, and he listened to me, and he played with me. And then one night, he crawled into bed and began to engage in sex with me, had me play with him, and he did with me. And this went on for about a year, and he said, "This is our secret. Don't tell anyone". So, he's a professional football player, I'm a five year old little kid, so of course I kept my mouth shut, and then repressed those memories when he left and moved out of our house, I just buried them so deep in my unconscious, because it was too painful to reconcile. And then when I was in therapy at 30 years of age, doing a technique called bioenergetics, which comes from Wilhelm Reich, originally, and then actually my therapist worked with Reich, and he helped me, through bioenergetics, which is getting anger out and expressing it strongly, then these images of my uncle's genitals started just like coming to my mind, and it just freaked me out, and I could have ripped down the building we were in. I had so much rage and shock, and then it took years to work through that, and then finally, in the arms of my friend Peter, I was grieving about the abuse, and it's just like I went down to the bottom and the core of my pain. And in Peter's arms, the voice of my inner child came out and said, "It's all my fault. It's all my fault", which is what every child believes. And then Peter spoke truth into my heart, saying "No, Richard, you were a child. He was the adult. It wasn't your fault". And in that moment, it's just like the floodgates open and the Heavens, just the Sun beamed into my heart, and I bonded with Peter in a healthy way. I could cut the cord with my uncle. And when I cut that unhealthy attachment with him, and I bonded with another man - funny, with the same name, how interesting is God? - I bonded with Peter and just, it's like the SSA just immediately began to wane and diminish. And of course, it took other things, bonding and having good relationships with other men. So that was a major, major moment in my healing. Of course, again, that's a period of the end of a long sentence of doing a lot of other healing activities. And then after I broke through, I just prayed to God, "What do You want me to do?" And it just became very clear: Help others and teach the world the truth about homosexuality. That was in 1987. Actually, it was around this time in 1987, so many years ago, and then I went back to graduate school, got my degree in psychology, counseling psychology and became a psychotherapist, helping people with unwanted SSA and their family members, and then traveling the world and giving educational programs. For the past 12 years, I've educated about 6,000 physicians, psychologists, psychiatrists, psychotherapists, counselors and people in ministry how to understand and help men and women within unwanted SSA and their family members. So that's a bit about my past.

Waheed:   19:15
God bless you. Thank you so much. What I want to kind of say at this moment, what really resonated with me, in particular, when I read your writings, is the fact that you have dealt with this firsthand. So you're not an outsider looking at the issue, you're coming from the inside. You've dealt with everything. So you know it inside out, right? So a lot of the individuals struggling, like my brothers and sisters who struggle with SSA, you know, we read usually the books by Joseph Nicolosi, Van Den Aardweg, Jenelle Hallman, and others. So it's like therapists who are speaking on our behalf, but they don't know how it feels, really, intrinsically. So this really makes a difference, coming from you and talking to us about this, because you have felt that. And that's a very unique perspective.

Richard:   20:01
Yes, it's true. I admire, appreciate and respect all these men and women you just mentioned, Nicolosi, Janelle Hallman, and Van Den Aardweg and others who have been pillars in the community, who have contributed deeply. And, as you said, they're, like from the outside looking in, and I have a different perspective from both sides of the sofa, I'd say, as the client who went through all of this and now as a therapist, who's helped so many. So I know of what I speak of personally and professionally.

Waheed:   20:43
Exactly. How about we start by talking about the four areas and four stages of healing homosexuality? You speak of four areas mainly to have a comprehensive approach which are intellectual, emotional, physical and spiritual, and then you kind of integrate that with the four stages of healing, which are transitioning, then grounding, and then healing homo-emotional wounds, and then later hetero-emotional wounds. So how about we start by kind of breaking it down to the listeners, stage by stage, if you like, starting with the first stage, which is transitioning and what it entails and involves?

Richard:   21:33
Sure. Before I begin the four stages, I want to say, this is a program for men and women who experience unwanted same-sex attraction. You are still 'safe' in the Muslim community to be able to speak in a more open fashion about this issue - here in the West, it's just.. And I've seen it happening over the last 40 years, it's an environment of such intolerance of these men and women who experience unwanted SSA. So you've been saying "healing homosexuality", I would never in this day and age say such a phrase, because the 'thought police' will incarcerate or put someone in jail for saying just a thing. It used to be "Coming Out Straight" and that [healing homosexuality] was the subtitle in the beginning, which I changed now to "Understanding Same-Sex Attraction". And even the book was taken off of Amazon because of LGBT activists. So I'm rewriting it, and I'm going to rename the book to get it back there. I'm just going to tweak it a little. But we live in an environment of such intolerance towards those who do experience unwanted SSA. You will hear me in my language, I don't say "those who have SSA", because that's, to me, not the truth. The truth is, "someone experiences SSA". It's a big difference. One is like a noun, and one is an adjective. No one is born homosexual. No one is born with same-sex attraction. Someone experiences same-sex attraction or homosexual feelings. So it's an adjective describing how they feel and their desires and then perhaps acting upon the desires. So, I make that distinction very clearly, that it's an adjective, it's not a noun. There's no such thing - I'm not a "gay". I'm not a "homosexual". That is just a cultural interpretation, and it's not scientifically valid. Someone is either a man or a woman by our biological makeup. So, we're all heterosexually designed: men's genitals and women's genitals fit perfectly. Two men or two women, genitalia-wise, they don't fit. So I just want to say that, to begin with. Okay. The four stages of healing is a road map of recovery from unwanted same-sex attraction. For those who have read the book "Coming Out Straight", either in English or German or Arabic or Spanish, whatever, sometimes they get overwhelmed thinking, "Argh! There's so much to do. How am I ever going to do all of this?" So I always say, "one day at a time, one step at a time and KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid. KISS." Don't think, "I've got to do this. And then I've got to do that." No, just take one step. Achieve that particular task, and then once you've done that, have an ice cream or pat yourself on the back, and get a good hug from those who love you, and celebrate that victory. Then you do the next task. So don't get overwhelmed from what I'm about to share. It's a lot to do. And as they say in the 12 step program, it works if you work it. Money back guarantee. The four stages as you said, Waheed, the first is behavioral therapy or the transitioning stage. That means "I'm deciding that I don't want to live a homosexual life", or in therapeutic terms, it's behavioral. The second stage is cognitive therapy, dealing with the mind and also finishing with the heart, inner child work, which I'll explain. And then the third stage is psychodynamic, that's dealing very deep, body-centered therapeutic techniques, and we're now approaching the homo-emotional and homo-social wounds, which means wounds we had with our same-sex parent, same-sex relatives, same-sex peers. And then the final stage is psychodynamic therapy as well dealing with the hetero-emotional or hetero-social wounding, that's with opposite-sex parent, opposite-sex family members and peers, and we need to work through those issues. So those are the four step of healing, and you mentioned that I break down each stage into physical, emotional, mental and spiritual. So if you want to imagine, if someone's visual, like think of a chair, a chair has four legs. If a chair has three legs, you will fall off of it because it's not stable. It also has a back to the chair. So just think of the four legs: physical part of our being, emotional part of our being, the intellectual or mental part of our being, and then the fourth leg is the spiritual part of our being. So all of those legs of the chair that we're sitting on must be in balance. And if they're not, if one is longer or shorter, again will be tilted and our life will be out of balance. So it's like a chair: emotional, mental, physical and spiritual. And then the back of the chair is Will. And it's not just your will or the individual's will. That's the Will of God who is supporting you, or Allah, through the process of healing. No one could do this alone, and sheer willpower will not get you through it. You need that - the back of the chair is the Will of God, it's God's love and support, and the support of others. So these are the four aspects and all four stages, so I don't want to make it too complicated, I just want to, you know, make it as clear as possible. Stage one, then, which, for therapists, is behavioral therapy, or transitioning as you mentioned. This is when someone makes a decision, "I'm hurting. I've struggled. I've tried it, maybe", you know, I've had all, like, four types of clients: those who have lived a homosexual life, or kept looking for a guy, for Mr. Right and did it all, had boyfriends, and it just didn't work. He's sick and tired of it, and he seeks change now. There's those who are very young, and they're questioning their sexuality, and they don't understand, "Do I want to live a homosexual life? Do I want to be straight?" You know, that's another type. I've had many men and women who are married to the opposite sex with children, and yet, they still struggle with their unwanted SSA, and they're looking for help. And the fourth type are people who are religiously motivated. "This is against my faith. So I will not live a homosexual life. Please help me". Of course, the other three could have also spiritually dimension to their healing. So those are the four types of clients. So in the transitioning, or stage one, the individual says, "No, I don't want to live it. I want a gay life. I want healing". And so there's three tasks. The first is cutting off from sexual behavior, the second is developing a network of support, and the third task is building self-worth and experiencing value in relationship to God or Allah. So the first is cutting off from sexual behavior. I know this might be very difficult for people who are sexually active, so I don't say, "Well, that's a prerequisite. You have to stop having sex or you have to stop masturbating and looking at porn". No. We're going to take it step by step by step. And one good video that I found is Gary Wilson, who was a professor of biology, and now he's into sex research, and he shows the damaging effects of porn. He did a talk, a Ted talk, I think a TEDx talk on the addictive nature of watching porn. It's a 20 minute little short video, it's SO good. And I sit with clients who are masturbating and watching porn a lot or hooking up and having sex. Once they see that, they realize the damaging effect upon the brain of repeated activity of porn, because what it does is physiologically change us, and that helps people to say, "Wow! I've got to start modifying my behavior". So in stage one, it's gradually cutting off from the sexual activity, and then the second task, in place then, we have to develop a network of support or a new family of choice. We need people to be on our team. Many people try to do this alone, and it's not possible, for the simple reason that we're born into families and we are relational in our makeup. That's how we come into the world, through our parents, and then in a family and in a community. So in the healing process, we have to develop a new family of choice, which is the network of support. It can be family and friends who know about our struggle and support us, it can be people like Joel 2:25, online support groups, and you have this wonderful podcast, so there's many wonderful venues where people can find support, who experience unwanted same-sex attraction. I'm so glad you're doing this because there hasn't been a lot of availability in the Muslim community to get and seek help and support.

Waheed:   33:09
Unfortunately, yes. This is a huge problem that we're hopefully trying to, kind of, fix these days.

Richard:   33:15
Right, which is why I happily said yes. I was in Cairo, Egypt in April/May last year, I did a five-day training for many therapists and coaches and counselors and some people in the clergy. And it was great. I was so happy to go there, to bring enlightenment in this area. So the second task, then, is getting support. Finding support groups, I talk about five types of relationships: there's heterosexual friends who know about your struggle and support you. And then there's heterosexual friends who do not know about your struggle and they're good friends. And then there's those who you are journeying together with in the battle coming out of unwanted SSA, and then there's mentors, people that can pour into your life, the elders. I stopped therapy for 10 years. I just have four clients I've been working with for about a year. These will be the last of my career: there's one who's Muslim, one who's Christian, one is Jewish and one is Hindu. So the guy who's Muslim is amazing. He has a real need for elders to hold him, to love him, to mentor him. Because his father was a bastard. He was so physically violent and abusive. So he has beautifully found elder men who have befriended him, and he needs lots of physical touch. So I've taught him how to communicate with them and they're holding him and he's grieving and grieving. He's is in stage two now doing inner child work. So it's imperative to find healthy mentors who can give that paternal love that the individual didn't experience. And then the fifth type of relationship, then, is giving to others. Once I've received, once I have started my healing journey, I can pour back and give back to others who are just beginning their journey. So that's the second task is the support network. And the third task of stage one is sense of self-worth. We have felt so terrible because we have SSA, we're the worst of the worst, we're the dirtiest, we cannot talk about it. It's easier to be a murderer or some horrible thing. But to say one has homosexual feelings in the Muslim community, it's...

Waheed:   36:20
Yeah, God forbid. It's like all hell breaks loose.

Richard:   36:23
Exactly. Exactly. And "don't tell!" The family says, "don't tell anybody." There's just so much shame and guilt. So, in the third task, we have to go to the mosque. We have to pray, and we have to feel the love of Allah. That "I'm not a gay person because I have SSA." Gay is a sociopolitical term, it's a noun. It was created by the homosexual activists to gain acceptance, because gay means happy! And believe me, I lived in that community and I had lots of relationships, and it's anything but happy. It's not a happy way of life. So, in the third task, the individual has to begin to internalize that "I'm loved by God. Just for who I am. SSA and all. I don't have to change to be loved. I am loved inherently." So for each one of these three tasks: cutting off from the behavior, sexual behavior, playgrounds, playmates, play things, I say, and then developing the support network, and in the book is a description of the different facets of the support network, and then building self-worth and feeling value in relationship with God. So I give lots of simple tools and techniques to accomplish each one of these tasks, so that it's very pragmatic. You know, I like practical things, not just "okay, this is philosophically interesting, and it's very informationally enlightening, well, what the hell do I do?"

Waheed:   38:13
Exactly, like, "What do I do next? Like, how do I implement all of this?"

Richard:   38:17
So in the book, I break down each one of those tasks, what to do, how to do it. And then, again, you achieve that, you internalize it. For example, for the third task: self-worth, I talk about affirmations. So I have the individual write a list of things he wished his father would have said, if that's a guy [in this case], what his dad would have said and done with him while he was growing up. That's one list. And then another list what he wished his male peers would have said and done with him while growing up. So he makes this list. And I explained, it's got to be in the present. No negatives, such as "you're not stupid" because the unconscious will omit the modifier and only hear "you're stupid". So I say "Okay, if you're not stupid, what are you? Smart!" So you're smart. So the list has to be positive, in the present, declarative sentences. So, after they finish writing their affirmations, then they have, if their same-sex parent is willing, able and healthy enough, he can make the recording. If he's not, then they have to find a healthy mentor to record that. And then he needs the voice or the voices of same-sex peers, who will make that affirmation recording. And they put a space in between each sentence to repeat it in one's mind. For example, "I love you." And then in your mind, you say, "Oh! You love me", and then, "I'm so proud of you", "Wow! He's proud of me" and "You're the son I always wanted", "Oh gosh! I'm a great son." So, in between each sentence, one is repeating what was just said. Now in the beginning, it feels great. It's like being, you know, bathed in the warmth of what we needed. Then, after that kind of golden stage passes, then we get pissed off and angry. It's like, "Why the hell are you saying it now? Why didn't you say it then?" So I say, "Put the recording on pause and just let it out." And if you're in a bedroom and you're in your family's house, you get a towel. It's really simple, get a towel, roll it up, put it over your mouth, you can curse, you can scream, and nobody's going to hear you. It'll muffle it. If you want to do it in your car, if you have a car. Not while you're driving! Park somewhere and then listen to it, and when you get angry, put it on pause and scream and cry and get it out, and then press play again, and then begin to listen. If you have to put it on pause after that, you just do so. So, if one practices this simple affirmation tool, over a period of 3 to 4 months minimum, it's going to be transformational, it's like pulling weeds and then planting seeds. By getting rid of the toxicity in our system, we begin to internalize, "I'm loved. I'm valuable. I'm cool. I'm a man. I'm wonderful." So then our heart and mind will begin to believe these messages. So that's one tool that I use in the third task of stage one.

Waheed:   42:07
There's a beautiful quote that you put in the book by Walter Trobisch when he said, "It is an established fact that nobody is born with the ability to love himself. Self-love is either acquired or non-existent." And then you also emphasize this multiple times in the book, when you say that "Your value comes from being loved and not from doing or accomplishing something or looking a certain way." So would you mind elaborating a little bit on these ideas?

Richard:   42:32
Sure! It is a fantastic quote from Walter Trobisch. So many people we've seen, especially in this day and age, we see now through the Internet. I mean, we are all living moment by moment in touch with the world. There are politicians, there are priests, there's pastors, I don't know about imams, but there's Hollywood movie stars, Hollywood moguls, business tycoons... They're falling every day, because they're being outed for sexually using and abusing children and adolescents and adults, homosexually or heterosexually. So, no matter what stature one accomplishes in life, being a president, or it doesn't matter. That never heals the heart. It never fills the soul. We are valuable not by what we do, but by who we are. And when people try to accomplish more, academically or professionally, and think, "Wow! I'm going to get to the top and then I'll feel good." No, it never ever works, because the feeling good comes from our being, not by our doing. So, first, we have to be content. We have to be at peace within ourselves. Then we can do what we're truly meant to do, and we'll have whatever we need. But in this world as it exists now, it's like "Do, do, do, have, have have, then you'll be happy." It's B.S., it doesn't happen that way. So you're right, I emphasize throughout the book and the program that we have to first feel valuable, feel our self-worth, just by who we are, SSA and all. So it's very true. We're not born with the ability to love ourselves. So you mentioned narcissism before, and it's a term I really don't like. It's a clinical term in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), and in Europe you have the ICD (International Classification of Diseases). To me, what narcissism represents is lack of love. Somebody doesn't feel loved. So, of course, they want to be the center of attention. They want everything to revolve around him or her. It just means "I'm so empty inside and I'm trying to fill up with you and with this and with that." So to me, that's what narcissism represents, a lack of love for oneself and for other people. So again, as you mentioned, we're not born with this ability to love, we're imbued with it by the healthy love of a maternal figure, the mother, and a paternal figure, the father, and to the degree that we did not experience both of those kinds of love, and, of course, grandfathers, grandmothers, aunts and uncles and other relatives. If we did not experience that sufficiently, we will walk around the rest of our life with holes in our soul like a leaking bucket, and nothing we do will help until we fill those holes and begin to really experience, "I'm loved just for who I am and not what I do." We call it performance-based behaviors. People try to achieve and achieve and do and do, or look really good. If only it worked, we'd have a pretty happy humanity, and we can see that that is not the case, right?

Waheed:   46:36
Exactly. Absolutely.

Richard:   46:46
So the first stage, again, is behavioral. We're dealing with changing the behavior, we're dealing with developing the network of support, and then feeling value in relationship with God just for who I am. Then in stage two, we're starting to deal with mental process. Our mind. And the four tasks are: continuing with the support network - let me tell you why the support network is critical. In stage three and four, we're going to do what I call the "basement work", we're going into the bottom of the bottom of our core wounds, and there we're going to grieve, and we're going to let out all the pain and the hurt. If we don't have people to be with us through the grieving process, people will go running back into the homosexual community to get the false love, or masturbation and porn, because they won't have the ability to sustain the pain without the support of other people. We're learning in stages one and two how to emotionally regulate and how to get support from people around us. So it's like reversing our childhood experiences. So the first task of stage two, then, is support network continuing. Second is continuing with value from God, that's our personal prayer life. That is the affirmations, listening and listening. In my own therapy, to my therapist's credit, he made an affirmation tape, I listened to it one year, Waheed. I listened to it one year, every morning and every night. And I couldn't stand myself. I thought I was a piece of crap when I started therapy. I was, you know, doing all these glorious things all over the world as an artist manager, and I was a performer. I knew how to, you know, get the approval of applause of people publicly, but inside I was a mess. So using that simple affirmation tape for one year, it really transformed me. And I'd put it on pause, and I would scream and curse and get out the hurt and pain and I'd just listen to it. And then after 3-4 months of listening, it really began to seep into me. So, I benefited from using it, and I've been using it with other clients. Third task: now in stage two, I'm teaching skills. Assertiveness in personal life, like "my mother keeps trying to, you know, dominate my life. She keeps trying to tell me what to do as an adult." So, I teach how to set boundaries, how to communicate. So we're teaching communication skills, how to express myself, not in an aggressive way, but in an assertive way. It's a big difference. Aggression is like in cringing, it's going upon the space of the other person and disrespectful, while assertive is "this is who I am. This is what I think. This is what I feel and this is what I need." And that's masculine or it's feminine to just state what I think, feel and need. So, practicing - I do role play with the clients and how they're going to speak to Mom or Dad or the boss at work or their friends, whomever. And they learn how to express their needs and their thoughts and feelings in healthy ways. So that's the third task, being assertive and healthy communication. And then the fourth task, finally, then, on the basis of diminishing sexual activity and having a growing network of support, beginning to feel valuable, just for who I am, not what I do. Then the fourth task of stage two is inner child work. Inner child is just another name for the unconscious, and the concept of inner Child was created by back to Carl Jung, and Charles Whitaker, another psychiatrist. And the book that I have found the most beneficial is called Recovery of Your Inner Child by Dr. Lucia Capacchione, an Italian but American woman. I love this book! I've done it myself about eight times, all the exercises in the 11 chapters. I started using it about 20-something years ago. It's so simple and yet profound. And when we go - so doing these exercises, we do it with our non-dominant hand. She has us do drawing and dialogue. So the dialogue, the dominant hand, if I'm right-handed, will be my adult self. And then my left hand. I'll use to speak the voice of my inner child nice. And it bypasses, neurologically, the intellectualization of our feelings by using the non-dominant hand. It's very beautiful and simple technique. In Europe, there's many workshops going on about inner child, and, in Egypt, a psychiatrist there that I mentored, he's actually developing new book about inner child, which I think, his book will be better than Capacchione's book.

Waheed:   53:06
OK, well we'll stay tuned for that then.

Richard:   53:09
Yeah, his name is Dr. Shihab El-Deen Al-Hawwari. You may know of him or know him.

Waheed:   53:17
I've heard of him, yes.

Richard:   53:19
Yeah, he's really, really wonderful. So he's working on a new inner child book. So the fourth task of stage two, then, is inner child work and that gets us in touch with our heart, with our feelings, and she has us go through meeting the vulnerable child, the angry child, and then developing a protective and nurturing inner parent, and understanding the critical parent, which is the introjection or the internalization of all the negative messages we acquired from our parents, from the community, from the mosque or the faith and even the culture. So it's very important to understand this critical voice inside that says "you're no good, you're bad, and you're going to hell because of your homosexual feelings or you know, you this.." All the critical voice. We have to learn to understand that part of us, and we have to learn to embrace it too. Many people will say "You have to cut it out, you have to deny it!" And I said, "No, it doesn't work. You have to make peace with it, and you need to learn to love that part of you so it doesn't try to sabotage your adult efforts to succeed." And then she deals with wounds of the past, and then, finally, the playful, creative and spiritual child. So this is the finishing task of stage two, the inner child work. In "Coming Out Straight", I break it down into, you know, understanding about the inner child and internalization of the parental messages, and then our adult self, where we have the false self that you talked about, all the masks we wear in different social situations, which is based on our childhood, how we learn to cope with difficult and painful circumstances. So that's stage two.

Waheed:   55:26
So, basically, you say that there is this inner family: the inner child, the inner parent and inner adult. And you say that with the inner child, we focus more on the feelings and the needs. The inner parent is basically the values, ethics and morals. And the inner adult is more about the thoughts and beliefs. And each individual from these three has both sides, you know, the positive or the negative. Can you touch a little bit on this idea?

Richard:   56:05
Sure, thank you. So this concept is first originally Freudian, about the id, the ego and the super ego. And then Eric Berne in Transactional Analysis broke it down to the child, the parent and the adult. And then I took the three and I said, "Okay, each one has two parts of it." So, the inner child has the wounded part, those are the hurts in our heart that haven't healed, and then there's the golden child. All the beautiful qualities that we were born with or we've learned, how to play, how to be creative, and our spirituals side. Actually, our spiritual side is based in the child part of our being. Because, just remember when you were a little kid, all the wonder we had, you know, looking up at the stars in the sky and imagining all kinds of fun things, and we could play. That's our spiritual side is connected to the golden inner child. Then there is the inner parent, and the inner parent also has two parts. We can break it down even into more like looking at the feminine and masculine part. But for simplicity's sake - the positive part is the nurturer and the encourager. So it's like the inner feminine, the nurturer, and the encourager, the inner masculine. So that's the beautiful parent that we all longed for and hoped we had had, and maybe to a degree we had it or didn't. And then the unhealthy part is the critic, the judger, "you're no good", the condemnation. All that is the negative parenting and the cultural messages, maybe from the community. I know in the Christian and Jewish faith, many people had toxicity in their faith, like "you're bad. And if you do this, you're going to go to hell. If you don't do that, you know, you're going to go to hell or you'll be bad."

Waheed:   58:21
And this is rampant in the Muslim community as well, so..

Richard:   58:24
It's across the board. So that's, theo-pathology. That's 'pathological-izing'  God, and God is unlike that. God loves. Of course, God gives us boundaries, you know, and commandments and things. And He doesn't do that punitively or critically. He does it for our own sake, when we're immature and yet undeveloped, He gives us like a good parent, like a fence around the house, so that we don't hurt ourselves or other people. However, many of us have experienced, "you're bad", and all the judgment. So that comes in the inner parent. That's all the negative voices we internalize, whether they be parental or social or theo-pathology in our faith. So the good side, remember, is the nurturer and the encourager. "You're great, you're wonderful. I believe you can do anything", that's our inner parent with the two parts. Then comes the adult, and the two parts are the higher self and the false self. The higher self is the cerebral, you know, mentally, we understand things, and also it's our spiritual part too, connection to all creation and humanity. We are all essentially family. So that's our higher self coming from the adult and having the ability to process information. The false self are the many masks that we have developed in order to survive, whether it be the rebel or whether it be the pleaser. Now the pleaser is rampant with those who experience SSA. And the reason is because of a hypersensitive temperament. Being highly attuned to the thoughts and the feelings and/or our perceived needs that they have, we amend our behaviors so we don't get hurt. So, so many who experience SSA are pleasers, and that's a disease, that's worse than narcissism, this pleasing personality because it kills us, because then as the false self, we can't be who we're truly meant to be, because we're trying to, like, through telepathy, understand what they want, and then we're going to meet their needs so that they don't hurt us or so that we are safe. However, it's not our job. In the healing process, that's like old technology we used to survive in a very unhealthy circumstance in our family of origin. So we really have to work on the pleaser part of one's personality. That's the false self - pleaser, caretaker, always taking care of other people. Now, the interesting thing about the false self is that all these things we do are based on our genuine talents and gifts from God. Because we may have a care-taking personality/temperament by birth. However, it's being used to get love, to get affection, to get affirmation from other people. So it thwarts, it prevents us from really getting the right kind of love, because it's love based on our doing and not on our being. So these are parts of the false self. You know, there's, a graph in the book called layers of the personality, and so I put many different hearts of the false there. So, again, the adult has the higher self, higher consciousness, connection to everyone and everything. And then there's this false self, the inner parent. There is the loving, nurturing, encouraging, and then there's the critical judgmental parent. And then the child has the wonderful golden, spiritually playful creative child, and then there's the wounded, broken inner child. And we need to be in touch with each one of those parts of our personalities. Again, anyone listening: don't get overwhelmed! We're going to take this step by step by step. And you just think about today, don't think about tomorrow. "Oh, my gosh! He said, I have to do all this stuff. I'll never do it." Yes, you will. And I've helped people manage this process, of course, we're just in stage two, but manage the whole thing, anywhere from 1 to 3 years. And if you're in therapy with a therapist for many, many years, and you don't see much growth, quit today! Because you're wasting your time and your money. You need somebody who really understands a clear path of healing and recovery. And if you're just going to a therapist and doing talking blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, cognitive behavioral, CBT therapy. If that's all you're doing, that's the beginning. If that's all the therapist is capable of, fire him or her today, because it's a waste of time and money, because you'll never - you won't get out of prison. I had clients who went to like eight therapists, before and I say, "Well, tell me, how did it help you?" "I don't know!" And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, what?" How sad that they wasted all those years, all that money and they didn't grow. So the second task is, again, continuing all tasks of stage two, the support network, and feeling good about oneself in relationship to God, the affirmations, and then assertiveness, communication skills. You don't wait to get happy to stage four. Stage two, I called grounding, is when you get centered, and you really start to feel good about yourself, and you really start to shift your relationships. There might be people you have to let go of, because they're not healthy for you now. And in Ecclesiastes, it says, "there's a time and a season for everything under Heaven, a time to be born and a time to die. A time to grieve and a time to dance." Some people are in our lives for a season, it doesn't mean they're always going to be there. One of my chief mentors - there were three men that helped save my life, and two of them are not in my life at all. The other one became my best friend for life, and now he's a therapist. Some people are in your life for a season. So in this season, you need healthy people to surround you. And then at the end of stage two, you do the inner child work, and it's very, very beautiful. And that prepares for stage three, which is then dealing with the homo-emotional and homo-social wounds

Waheed:   1:6:10
You talked about the HALT acronym, and you said, basically, these are the causes that lead to sexual lust, and it's a good diagnostic tool to help the person identify the triggers and practice self care. So can we get into this a little bit more if you don't mind?

Richard:   1:6:28
Wow, you really took great notes on the book!

Waheed:   1:6:30
I swallowed it, like I inhaled the information. Like I said, I'm a very devoted fan of yours, so thank you so much for doing this.

Richard:   1:6:40
A big hug!

Waheed:   1:6:41
Yes, exactly! A big virtual hug right now!

Richard:   1:6:44
Right. Actually, I believe the HALT diagnostic tool comes from the 12-Step movement. The HALT represents Hungry, Angry, Lonely and Tired, and HALT in English means stop. So the meaning is, before you want to masturbate, before you want to look at porn, before you went to go and hook up and have sex with someone. Halt! Stop, and use this diagnostic tool. Hungry, angry, lonely, tired. And then I added an "S". HALTS. So I'll explain it now. Hungry? Hungry is, I'm looking at someone and I just want to ravage him. Or if it's a woman I want to ravage means I just want to internalize them. I want to have sex with them. I want to eat them or I want them to eat me. So if I'm hungering for a person, as you were alluding to, that's lust, that has nothing to do with love. That is lust. And so, underneath the hunger generally is a sense of rejection or some immense disconnection. So what you're doing is, before you want to masturbate or go out and have sex or look at porn, I say, "Before you pull out your pants and you go down your pants, pull out your journal", pull that out first and start writing. Hungry. Okay, I hunger after this guy and write it out like, "I want him to come and take my clothes off and I want to do this and I want to do that" as graphic as you can be. Now, in your journal, if you're living at home, you have a spouse or you're living with your parents or a roommate, be sure you have - well, some people do it on their computer now, and then they just password protect the document, so nobody can get into it because it's locked, and they need to have a password. So if you use your computer, that's cool. If you use a hand written journal, make sure you have a locked box you can put it in, plus all your other homework, because you don't want someone else coming into your room and reading these things. That's your heart and soul you're putting in there. Okay, so you're writing out or you're typing out. What's going on? "Oh, I'm so hungry", and you describe it and "I really want to do this and do that" and then breathe. And then by doing externalization of your internal process, then you might get the "Aha! My mother this morning said something that really pissed me off, and that's why I want to go hook up or go look at a guy and masturbate and have porn." So, it could be right in the beginning, in the "hungry" stage. Now, hungry can also be physiologically hungry. Maybe you didn't eat for a long time. I don't know if it's Ramadan or just normal activities of the day, you haven't eaten, and that physical hunger may create a psychological need for sex. So you have to monitor your health and understand what's going on. That's Hungry. Then Anger or Angry. So this can be your spectrum of emotions, "Am I upset with someone? Am I frustrated with someone?" This can cause a sexual desire. So doing this whole diagnostic tool helps you get behind the desire, because 90% of the time, sex is not about sex. It's about hurts, and it's about needs. So doing this helps you identify it. So Angry: "Oh, I can't stand what he said today. My boss was a real idiot. He screamed at me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Ah!" by just getting that out, the sexual desire goes away. Money back guarantee. Then there's the "L", Lonely. We all have legitimate needs to both, give and receive love. Some people are more physical, like myself. Physical touch is very important. Now, I wrote a book for healing heterosexuality, and so the last four weeks, I was teaching at four different churches. It was very timely, before the corona virus pandemic. Now everything's closed. So it was amazing timing of God that I got to teach in four different places. If anybody wants to see any of those, you can go to my Facebook page, which is just Richard A. Cohen. in Bowie, Maryland. You can put under PATH, Positive Approaches to Healthy Sexuality, or the new book "Time, Touch and Talk". You can find my Facebook page, and I put links to all the different talks. So I'm telling the heterosexuals that "you guys who are wanting to hook up and have sex, and it's not about sex. It's about hurts and needs." So again, this whole diagnosis. So the "L": I have to feel love, and I have to give love. And if that's not happening, it's just like, again, the four legs of the chair: spiritual, emotional, mental and physical. The "L" is for love, and if I'm not giving and receiving that on a regular basis, I'm definitely going to want to masturbate, look at porn or have sex. It's a substitute. It's an illegitimate substitute for a legitimate need of love. And again, journaling will help you identify what's going on. Then you can take positive steps to reach out to mentors, to reach out to friends, even volunteer - by volunteering in the community and giving to others, that feeds you endorphins, and it will give you a physiological high to feel the connection to another person, by giving to them. And then "T", Tired. So Hungry, Angry, Lonely and Tired. Tired is, we live in a world which admires stress. It's like almost normal to be stressed out. And if you're not stressed, you're not doing it right. So we live in a very imbalanced world right now. So those who are hypersensitive really have to be careful with that beautiful golden temperament given by God. We cannot live in a very stressful way of life. Otherwise, you're definitely going to want to hook up or have sex or masturbate and watch porn. So "T" is tired or stressed. If you didn't get enough rest, if you're under too much pressure, you have to rectify that. It's just like somebody who has a food disorder, you know, eating, eating, eating or denying myself the food or purging, it's again a mask. You know, there's a book called "When Food Is Love", so people eat to feel love. People have sex to feel love. If it only worked, right? And then the "S" I've added, which is not in the book, is a spiritual aspect. I have this one young Jewish - I call him a boy, he's so cute, he's almost 20. I mean, my oldest is 36, my daughter is 35 and the youngest is 25, we had a couple of miscarriages in between, so I call him like a boy, he's 20, so cute - and he's really experiencing a lot of spiritual battles, because this kid is so talented, so smart, so sensitive, so good-looking. So we've got to realize there are spiritual aspects happening. And say you're on a.. I don't know if you have them in whatever country whoever is listening to this, like an underground metro system or you're on a bus, and you went into the bus, and you were not feeling sexual feelings. Then all of a sudden, someone standing next to you and you start to feel sexual desire. Sometimes you have to realize somebody's projecting their sexual need onto you, and you may be as a highly temperamental person picking that up. Like when a client would come into my office, I wasn't feeling anything, and all of a sudden I'm getting all of these sexual feelings, and I realize, "Oh, my gosh! This person is so horny and not dealing well with their sexual feelings. And I'm absorbing their energy." Boy, have I had to learn over the years how to shield up in a healthy way, because the first years of doing therapy, I picked up everybody's stuff. They would leave the therapy room and I would have to cry and get it out for, like, half an hour because it would be like pores in my being. Even though I had healed a lot, still, I picked up people's stuff, and I've learned now how to shield up. Anyway, the point is, in the "S" of HALTS, the spiritual aspect, "are you picking up other people's energy?" And the other part is being a highly temperamental, hypersensitive person, we can easily pick up on stuff, or be the target of unhealthy spiritual activity that's trying to make us do that which we don't want to do.

Waheed:   1:17:17
So you're talking here about whisperings, for example, from the devil, so to speak.

Richard:   1:17:22
Correct. All of a sudden, if you hear voices like a voice, "you should this, you should that" if you hear the "you" voices, that's not coming from you, that's coming from outside of you. So it's very important, again, so you're doing this diagnostic tool, so you get to "S", like spirits, and feeling all of a sudden "I want to do this" and the voices saying "You should hook up with this person or you should have sex or.." if you're getting those "you" voices, that's coming from outside of you. We have to discern "Is it coming from within me? Or is it coming from outside of me?" And people who experience SSA are beautiful men and women who are hypersensitive. And, you know, we have to protect our gifts. So Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired, or for those who might believe it, Spiritual activity. And you journal this, ideally, before you want to masturbate or go out and have sex. Now, if you were, I say, if you did it already, you journal afterwards. And the  reason you're journaling is to identify the triggers that cause you to do that, which you don't want to do. So when you start doing this, and after you write it out for quite a while, then you can do it in your head. And it's like, "Oh, I'm hungering after this dude, and argh! I feel rejected by my boss or my wife or the kids or... Or I'm so stressed about life, so overtired, or I'm lonely because I haven't been hanging out with the guys, or I'm angry. This happened, and I'm so outraged, and ahhh!" So once we start understanding the triggers, boom! The sexual desire will dissipate immediately.

Waheed:   1:19:25
And you talk about some techniques to help manage the HALTS, which is, in addition to what you were saying, journaling, you were saying to reach out for help within the support group that we have been trying to establish, the power of prayer, meditation and affirmations, as well as some deep breathing exercises, focussing techniques and then bioenergetics, in addition to, you know, you have other techniques, like creating an emotional map and you go into this in detail in the book. 

Richard:   1:19:57
Okay, anybody who just listened to Waheed, don't be overwhelmed! Like again, this one kid, he sent me a message panicking, I said, "You have the technology", I've taught him, you know, over a year. And so one could do inner child work. There's two beautiful techniques. One is called Focusing. It's by Dr. Eugene Gendlin, and it was developed at the University of Chicago. They did a research study: why do some clients heal in therapy and others don't? And they had two hypothesis: one was the therapeutic relationship with the client and therapist, like it was a good rapport, good relationship. The other was the therapist used good techniques that helped the client heal. So they recorded 500 1-hour sessions with the therapists and the clients, and they found that both of their hypotheses were nullified. It was not correct. It wasn't the relationship with the therapist and client, and it wasn't the technique. What they discovered was, those people who heal, this is what happened: they were sharing about a situation, and then they start to say, "Well, you know, it felt, it felt like.. Ahhh!" and then they got into their feelings. They found that those who feel could heal, and those who couldn't didn't. So what I say in all my work is, you have to be real and feel in order to heal. That's why if you're just with a therapist and "blah, blah, blah, blah, blah", fire them, quit, find a better one. Okay, so with the focusing, his technique is very simple. I'm not going to describe the whole technique. It's basically to get in tune and touch with a part of your body that, you know, Nicolosi uses this body-centered therapy. God bless Joe. I love him. His a genius. He was fantastic. So focusing is finding the part of your body, and again Joe used this particular technique. But in the externalization of it, it's "where do I feel, is it in my chest, is it in my throat, is it in my groin, my solar plexus?" Okay, then after you find where the feeling is then you identify what it is, "is it hurt? Is it pain?" It could have a phrase. "I'm so frustrated", and then after you identify it, then you listen to it. What is it about? Hurt or "I'm so frustrated, it hurts so much, that's so uncomfortable." Then you listen., listen, listen, listen. And it's going to come up with a hundred thousand "because of this, because of that". And you just let all of that go, because it's never that. And then the answer will come from your neck down, not in your head. And all of a sudden, it's going to say, "blank", and then you go "Ahhhh!" Something like that. Then you find the truth. And then you ask it, "What do you need?" I add on to his focusing technique like, "What do you need?" And then you never give a false promise. "Oh, yeah, I'll do that." No, no, no. You'd have to realistically negotiate with that part of yourself. Then you thank it for speaking to you. So that's focusing. And another technique is voice dialogue, which is very similar, it's the externalization of the internal feeling, and it's such a beautiful, elegant technique that I've used, you know, over the last years. And it's just beautiful. As I said, I've done therapy with a few people the last year, and even though it's over video conferencing, I can still do all the same thing. In fact, before the Internet, I was doing therapy with people over the telephone, and I helped people go from completely SSA to OSA, never meeting them at all. Just doing really amazing deep work using the telephone. So if you find a good therapist, it doesn't matter what device you're using. You can heal. So focusing, voice dialogue, inner child work, HALT... There's many different roads to help one deal with the sexual behaviors. And then the key, again, is finding the triggers that lead, because the addictive cycle is "I have a need", so then "I don't get my needs met", then "I do what I don't want to do", then "I feel guilty and ashamed and I apologize to God and myself", and then it starts again: "I have a need, I don't give my needs met, I do what I don't want to do", guilt and shame, apology and it continues. So these particular techniques help interrupt the cycle of the unhealthy behaviors to figure out why I do it and then how to substitute the unhealthy things with the support network, with the support system, with reaching out. I always said, when I lead a support group, I had a phrase, "instead of reaching in to my dick, to my penis, reach out to a friend or reach out to a mentor", like call someone. "Waheed, I want to jerk off, I really want to hook up with this guy", and then you will say "Yes, Thank you. Tell me more", "Yeah, I just really want to...", "Yeah tell me more". And as he speaks and speaks, he'll go deeper and deeper "Argh! I'm so sad. I didn't get my.. I really need some..", you know, and then they'll get in touch with what it's about. So, these are a few techniques you can use to discover why you want to do that which you don't want to do.

Waheed:   1:26:15
Okay, so now we move to stage three. And as you have alluded to before, in this  episode and throughout your book, you said that the purpose of stage one and two is to become more stable in our present day relationships, because what comes after that, in stage three and four, there's a lot of deep, deep work that needs to be done, as you said, it's like the basement - going into the basement, right? So it's very important to kind of establish that support system before we move into the unresolved traumas that have caused the homosexual disorientation, as you say. So, let's start with stage three.

Richard:   1:27:04
Thank you. And the reason I discovered this is, of course, as a professional, guiding men and women through this process, and also my own healing journey. My therapist in New York City, he was brilliant, and he had so many missing pieces. And the missing piece was, he brought me down so deep into this stage three of dealing with core wounds. I was bleeding all over the sidewalks of New York City, bleeding with my pain. I lived in New York City at the time, and I did not have a support network to hold me through this very painful process. So I realized, there needs to be the stability internally and externally with the support network, before anyone does this deep therapeutic psychodynamic healing work. Now, we're all messy people, and this is the linear model, and none of us are clean and linear. Life is messy. So in your healing work or therapeutic work, if you're doing like stage one work, okay, you're cutting off from the sexual behavior, you're developing a network of support, you're using affirmations. Then cognitively I use a book called "Ten Days to Self-Esteem" by David Burns. It's really excellent. Again, I love practical things. So the Cappachione book for inner child, and the Burns book, "Ten Days to Self-Esteem", which is translated into many languages, is a very simple method to understand our mind, you know, how we negatively think about ourselves and others. So again, as you said, people need to get stabilized in stage one and two, and get a network of support. So we're grounded, and we're beginning to feel good about ourselves. Then Stage three we're dealing with father-son, mother-daughter wounding, and any other hurts from the past that involved people of the same sex. So now we're doing the basement work, which means going into the unconscious, the hurts of the past. We cannot do it alone. So no matter how much you cry with your pillow at night and pray and pray or go to the mosque and pray and pray and pray, again, God could, but He will not take your pain away. He needs you to do that with another human being, because all wounds were created relationally. So the healing has to take place in healthy relationships. So now you're going to go into the father wound, if you're a guy. I had father wounds, my brother beat me a lot, my uncle abused me. Some people, I just want to let you know: if you were not abused sexually or physically, just that your father was unavailable, if you're a guy, that is equally painful or traumatizing to a child, because the father's absence says to the boy, "I'm not valuable. I'm not loved. Something's wrong with me." So abandonment or neglect by a same-sex parent is just as powerfully damaging to a child as abuse, physical or sexual. So don't think, "Oh, my background was not that bad. My father didn't do this or that." His lack of availability. His lack of holding you. His lack of playing with you can be equally damaging in the heart and mind of the child. So it doesn't have to look big to be as profoundly painful. So now we're going to work through the grieving process. It's like a child: if you fall down and you hurt your knee, you're going to cry. It hurts. And what do you need? Somebody to come and help clean it up, put some ointment on it, maybe, and put a Band Aid and then hug and kiss you. Then you're happy. That's how we heal. It's just that. As adolescents or adults, we've learned all these masks, how to cover ourselves. So now in stage three, we're going to those wounds, and we need to grieve. That's how we naturally heal. God built that in for us to heal, whether we're eight or 80 years old, we can always resolve issues. And when you're expressing your core pain, you may not want to be touched, because it hurts too much. And then afterwards, you can ask someone that you're with, "Would you please hold me?" The point is, we need to be heard, and many people need to be held. And that's the healing process. And it's easy to forgive the perpetrator, the one who hurt us, when we release all that toxicity in our system, all those wounds. Once we release it, it's easy to see "Oh my! They were so fractured. They were wounded. That's why they did what they did to us." Then we can forgive in our heart, rather than just in our head. And then it's easy to let go of them then. Then, the final piece is, we have to discover in our mind as a result of the hurt in the heart, "What did I come to believe about myself and others as a result of this or these experiences?" Because that's where we really shift the whole axis of our way of being when we understand, "I don't trust men," or "I will never be close to another person, because people hurt me." These are core negative beliefs that we adopted as children, as a result of being hurt. So we need to then consciously change the tape in our brain, saying, "I can trust men." And then I have the client make new affirmation recordings, based on the core beliefs, and we'd shift it neurologically and psychologically, "I can trust", or "I trust men. I trust women." It's a conscious choice. So this is the final part in stage three, is to then deal with the core beliefs and begin to change our way of being and believing about myself and other people. Again, this cannot be done alone, and not just with the therapist. We need other people who can be with us through the pain, hold us if necessary, and that's when the same-sex attractions will either dissipate or significantly diminish, by going through this in stage three.

Waheed:   1:34:44
So basically, what you were talking about is what you have mentioned in your book as the 5 R's: Recall, Release, Relief, Realize and Responsibility. So we "recall" the events that have created the same-sex detachment, and then we grieve ("release") through rage and tears and anger and other emotions. After that, the "relief" happens after we have released all of these emotions. Then we learn two kinds of forgiveness that you have said, you know, we forgive with our mind, and after that we forgive with our heart, when we "realize" that the other person has been wounded, like my mom or dad have been dealing with their own traumas. And then "responsibility", taking responsibility, as you have mentioned. And there is something that is very interesting, which you said, that once we do all of this, it's very important to achieve three things, which are emotional makeup work and then mental reprocessing and then behavioral changes. And emotional healing alone is not sufficient, we also need to kind of do the mental and the behavioral changes. Can you elaborate a little bit on this?

Richard:   1:35:56
Right, so just going through the process of grieving, it's not enough. As I said, we have to then mentally process, "What did I come to believe?" So actually, when I was working through the abuse of my uncle, with the help of my friend Peter, he said, "Richard, it wasn't your fault." And then "Ohhh!", you know, Heaven opened and I released. Then, ask yourself or have your healer or your mentor ask you, "So then what did I come to believe as a result of this or these experiences?" So phase one is the grieving and the releasing and forgiving like you say, you know, you said I said, is I can easily forgive them. And then, the deep report is, ask yourself, "What did I come to believe about myself and other people as a result of this or these experiences?" And then you listen to your soul. You listen. And then the answers will come. "I don't like them. I don't believe that. I'll never..." All these deeper messages that I internalized as a result. So that's the mental reprocessing. And then finally, behaviorally, we make new choices. I choose love. I choose trust, Like for me, "I don't trust anybody." That's what my core says. I don't trust anyone, based on being sexually abused, based on physical abuse, based on my raging, emotional abuse of my father and mother.. So in my core, I say "I don't trust anyone!" And then in my higher self, I can trust everyone, because safety is not outside. It's inside of me. I choose to trust, not because you're a good person, I trust because I make the conscious choice. And if you end up being a jerk to me, I know that's about you and not me. So safety is not outside of us. It's inside, and I make a conscious choice of trust, of giving, receiving. So that's the final part, the behavioral changes based on the emotional processing, the mental understanding and then behaviorally, we choose the way we wish to live.

Waheed:   1:38:52
Absolutely. And as you said, it's very crucial at this point to have healing relationships with other members of the same gender. It cannot be done alone. So men must heal with other men, women must heal with other women, and you mentioned like doing activities such as walking, talking, hiking, camping, fishing, sports, anything that we do together in a safe environment is very important for healing. And you also suggested this earlier, and then in this stage you also emphasize that, which is the importance of having a "mentor", having a relationship with a surrogate father for the man.

Richard:   1:39:29
Be careful, because some try to find one person to do it all. You'll never find one person. Minimum find three mentors, or even spread it out more. Like you can have a mentor who is very tactile, who can do holding. And then have a mentor who's spiritual, he can really help in your relationship with Allah -  with God and your faith. Then have a sports mentor, he can teach you how to do football (you guys call it football, we call it soccer) and how to play. It doesn't mean you have to like it, it means just learned to play. Because, like for me, I'm a great teacher and learning to play was difficult, because I'm very serious. So with my kids, I played soccer, football you call it. When I was in high school, I was very good, I was on the varsity team. I hated it. I didn't like it, but I did it because I thought, "Maybe my father would love me more." What a load of sh*t that was! But anyway, I did it with my sons. I went, and my daughter, she played football also, and I went to all their games and I cheered them on. I didn't like it. I'm not into sports much, but I did it for the sake of my children. And then I would teach them how to play. And learning how to play is really important. Now, you mentioned hikes or camping or whatever. Now my kids love that stuff. My two sons, not me. I'm a city guy, and I love museums and I love art. And I raised my children, going to museums for all different types of things. So they're very Renaissance people. They're very well rounded. And I worked with many parents, like in the book "Gay Children, Straight Parents". So one guy, he was a dancer, and I did a family session with his family - gorgeous family. I do these weekend/2-day sessions with the whole family system. It's just transformational. It's like worth two years of therapy. It's incredible. So the mother was totally this smother mother, and the father was silent a lot, so I shifted the whole family. They had a year and a half before their son left to go to university. I said [to the father], "You're gonna hold your son for at least three times a week." And then the father was, like, huge, so tall but I said, "You're going to hold him like a little boy." And so they did. And the son started getting, you know, pissed off and angry. One time he gave his father a black eye. By accident, it was by accident. And the father told me - I was doing a parent's class and he said, "Oh, Richard! I was holding him. He got so pissed off and he gave me a black eye." I said, "That is wonderful! Wear it proudly!" The son was able to get his pain out, that he didn't do it intentionally. And the son was an artist and still is. He asked me - I didn't do therapy with him, some I did, but mostly the parents - "Should I stop dancing?" I said, "Who gave you this gift?" He said, "It is from God". I said, "Then how can you stop using the gift and the talent that God gave you?" So he continued. Now he's reached the top of his profession, and he's married to a woman. He struggled with SSA - the son - but the parents really did beautiful work. And then he got surrounded by healthy men, and his whole life, you know, shifted, of course, it took years. So the point was, multiple mentors. In the example I gave, the son was extraordinary and unique, he had a father who is willing to do it, and a mother, for two years, she didn't say a word - she just allowed the father and son to really bond. Most of us didn't have that luxury. So, a mentor for holding and physical touch, a mentor for spirituality, a mentor for sports, a mentor for finances. Find different kinds of mentors. Don't try to find one person. And when you do stage three deep healing work, if one is not available, you can contact another. At least one person can be there to witness your pain, to hold you, if necessary, and help you process through it. So don't just find one mentor, find multiple mentors. Otherwise, it's a setup for a failure by trying to - we say, in English, you put all your eggs in one basket. So find different mentors who can be there with and for you while you go through this.  

Waheed:   1:45:06
And now for stage four.  

Richard:   1:45:08
Stage four is identical to stage three. Now we're dealing with hetero-emotional and hetero-social ones. That's mother-son, father-daughter and any other wounds you may have experienced with members of the opposite sex. So first, you identify those, which, by now you have through your therapy, and now it's important to have opposite-sex mentors. So these are, for men, women who exhibit healthy feminine qualities. I needed that. I had three men, and I had three women who helped me through this process. Actually, more than three women, but especially three that were very significant. And I had almost more pain regarding my mother than I did with my father. Of course, my uncle was a lot, but my mother was just like... Woody Allen made this movie, and he had a picture of God in the sky, and it was his mother's face, always giving him guilt and shame. And "why didn't you do this? Why aren't you doing.." You know, the typical Jewish mother. So for me, my mother wasn't just the face of God. It's like, if you saw all the people on the planet, and you cut their heads off, in my experience, my mother's head was on everybody. She was so all omnipotent, powerful, and I had so much stuff to get out regarding my mother. So I grieved and grieved a lot. And I had healthy feminine mentors who were there with me and for me, and helped hold me through the pain. Some of them cooked beautiful meals for me, when I was going through this, that was their mother's love, and others just were a great support. And then in the final thing, now the man is learning how, after working through these things - and just to let you know, you're not going to, like, go through this and then you're done. Healing is a lifetime journey. In going through these four stages, you're going to get skills and techniques to last you a lifetime. That's the job of a good therapist, is to give you a treasure chest of tools to take care of yourself for the rest of your life. If you're seeing a therapist years and years and years and years.. "Pfffft!" That's no good. His job or her job is to give you the tools and technology to take care of yourself. So I had beautiful feminine mentors who helped me. It's interesting, from my healing process, one man and one woman, they became lifelong friends, to this day, like for 36-40 years, I've had them. They're the closest people. The woman, Hilda, for 25 years we've worked together, and she's a great coach and healer now and does these family sessions. And Philip is my best friend, and he has so many SSA clients. He didn't go through it himself, but he mentored me through it, and he attended so many of the trainings I've done, and he went through, you know, graduate school in counseling psychology. So then, at the end, he or she will be like a teenager, whether you're 50 years old or 60 or 35, because once you go through all that, then you, emotionally, are like a teenager, like "Oh my gosh! How do I date a woman?" if it's a guy, or "How do I date guys?" if it's a woman. And you need your mentors, both male and female, to help you learn about the opposite sex from your gender perspective, because most men who experience SSA see women from a female perspective, through the eyes of their mother. Now, having gone through this, they've shifted, they're in their masculine power. So now they're seeing women through the eyes of a man. So he needs men and women to teach him about dating and what women want and like, which is a totally different thing. She saw men from a masculine perspective, generally from the eyes of her father. Now she's seeing men through the eyes of her mother, a feminine perspective, and she has to learn about dating men. So anybody who goes through this, no matter what their age, they're like emotional teenagers, so they need mentoring to learn about the opposite sex and how to date and be with women, or with men if she's a woman. So those are the four stages. The first is behavioral, "transitioning". Remember, the tasks are: cutting off from playgrounds, playmates, playthings and sexual activity, then developing a support network, and then experiencing value, "I'm loved by God. I'm not gay. I'm not bi, I'm not trans. I'm a man or I'm a woman. That's my identity." Stage two, then, is the "grounding" stage. We continue all the work of stage one, and then we learn communication skills, how to be assertive, how to communicate well, how to express myself, how to set healthy boundaries, stop being the pleaser, and then doing the inner child work, and we talked about the adult, parent and then the child part. Now we get into our thoughts, feelings and needs. Then we go into stage three of healing homo-emotional and homo-social wounds, grieving, finding out our core beliefs, making new choices, and we need healthy same-sex mentors. Have multiple mentors, not just one! And then stage four is healing opposite-sex wounds and having opposite-sex mentors, and then beginning to learn about the opposite-sex from my gender's perspective. Those are the four stages of healing.

Waheed:   1:51:44
So one common question that pops up is, "What if I cannot have therapy, like I cannot afford financially, or I live in a place where there is no access to therapists?" So that's one question, "I don't have the venues for it."

Richard:   1:52:04
First of all, we have the Internet, so you can have a therapist. Doesn't matter what country you're in, as long as you have access through your phone or a computer, you can find a therapist in many countries. So that's one thing. The financial piece of not being able to afford: negotiate with a therapist. First of all, you have to have a good rapport with the therapist. If you don't feel their warmth, if you don't feel their love, if you don't feel their concern and care, don't waste your time. Then, negotiate. And perhaps you can look for sponsors, people who will sponsor your therapy. I know people, again, in the Muslim community have had others who paid for their therapy. Or you can find a graduate student of counseling who needs clients and does it pro bono without payment. And if he knows this program, he can help you, or she can help you. So contact Joel 2:25, they have recommendations and resources, and you have resources, Waheed, I'm sure. So you can get counseling. The book, "Coming Out Straight", I've heard from several people that they did it themselves. They used the program. And if you work it, it works. For example, the new book, which is, "Healing Heterosexually: Time, Touch and Talk", it's very similar, it's just for all humanity. And as I've been speaking the last couple weeks, it's not a book to read, it's a book to do, and "Coming Out Straight" is the same. Do the exercises in the book, and then ask others, like you're creating a support network, ask others, "Well, I'm stuck here. What can I do?" A support network can also be your therapists in a way to help you work through this. So, don't be alone!

Waheed:   1:54:23
Absolutely, and what I loved in your book is that, in every section, you would recommend certain workbooks or certain references by specialists, counselor, psychologist, etc., that people can actually buy and benefit from. So that's a very important resource for individuals. The second part of the question was - okay, so that's as far as therapy. But what about mentors? Let's just assume that someone is living in an area or in a place, and they cannot just find mentors or individuals that would constitute what we call the "support system". So how would you attend to that?  

Richard:   1:55:00
In the business field, salespeople are taught, "Expect nine rejections and one sale." So that means, 90% of the time, you're going to get rejected. So look for men who can be prospective mentors. So here's a three-step model how to communicate. Joe [Nicolosi] worked some of this out, and I got from him, so both of us. So first is, this is how you know if a person is safe for a prospective mentor. So you talk about your background, like this is what I went through growing up, and my family was like that. Then you ask him, "How about you?" now if he says, "Oh, everything was great." Hasta la vista, baby! You know that's not a person who is safe. That's step one. He needs to be mutually sharing about his background. Then, another conversation could be that, "Well, I told you about... I went through this, this and this, and it just created a lot of hurt. It left me feeling outside the club or the tribe of men, I felt like there was a wall, and there was them and there was me. It was really hard to be close to other guys. So I hung out with women. And now I don't like that" or so something like that. It's basically the effects of what you experienced, without talking about the sexual stuff. And then you ask him, "Well, how about you? What was the result of your crap? Your growing up?" And then if he shares, great! If he shuts down, bye bye! The third communication will be well, "I told you about my background. I felt left out. And so I developed same-sex attraction. And I haven't had sex or I have, you know, whatever. And I'm on a healing path now. And I would be really grateful if you would be, you know, a buddy and support me in this process." By that time, it's like a good lawyer - you've laid out the causes of SSA, by sharing, in those two conversations, so it will be logical for the person to understand. You don't say, "I'm gay", because that's just dumb. No one will understand. So by the third conversation, you can say, "Well, because of my background and then the effects, I developed SSA, and I have or I haven't acted out or bla bla bla, and I'm in therapy, or I'm working with a support group, and I really would be grateful if you'd be part. How about you? What were the effects of your, you know, growing up and stuff?" and he can say, "Yeah, [maybe] I've had sex with lots of women, or I don't, or I jerk off or do porn, too. And I'm trying to get over that so maybe we can help each other." You know, something like that. So, expect a lot of rejection when you're looking for mentors. I got rejected so so so many times. You just have to keep looking. This one guy, the Muslim guy I've been working with for about a year, I just can't believe it. He's found mentor after mentor after mentor, and I don't want to mention what country he's in, he's in the Middle East, and it's just incredible! He's better than me, you know, it took me so long! But he's kept, and he was doing holding with this one guy, like couple of times a week. And then he hangs out with these other guys and just has coffee and shares. So, expect rejection and keep looking, until you find the right men that God has chosen to help you heal.

Waheed:   1:59:25
Another question is, and I've heard this many times, especially from individuals who go to therapy, particularly reparative therapy. And they say sometimes that there is this "false hope" or this promised goal of you know, "Eventually you will have your SSA diminish, or they won't be as, you know, all encompassing. You might have your OSA (opposite-sex attractions) will increase," and then the individual, the client, would realize that, after a lot of time, a lot of effort, "I don't see that." And they think that that is a failure, or they get frustrated with the system. So how would you answer that?

Richard:   2:0:14
Bad therapy. Like I said. There was a joke, I heard. Two therapists are going up the elevator. They're both dressed very proper. And, you know, one with the bowtie and one with a necktie, and they go up the elevator in the beginning of the day. Then they both do therapy. Then they're both coming down the elevator at the end of the day. And one looks like a mess. I mean, his tie is all undone, and he's wiped out. And the other is still.. The bowtie looking fresh. And so that one who's a mess looks at him and says, "How can you look like this, after going through, you know, listening to all these things?" And the guy says, "Who listens?!"

Waheed:   2:1:06
Oooh! Darn, that's cold!

Richard:   2:1:11
I know that's very cold! So, if you're with a therapist who is not engaged with you, who is not helping you learn these skills and giving you tools and techniques, not allowing you to do body-centered therapy. And, you know, healing will take place first behaviorally, we have to go through all those stuff, then it's from the neck down, that's where, in our body, all of our emotions live. So if you're with a therapist who's just doing CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) and just talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, quit. Because it won't help you. So the promise that you will reduce your SSA and increase OSA is legitimate, if you receive the right type of counseling. So follow the program we've spoken about over the last couple hours, and it works if you work the program. Why? Because we're biologically men or women. Science does not show that SSA is determined from birth. It is an acquired condition. Therefore, it can be unlearned. It will take a lot, and you can do it. Money back guarantee.

Waheed:   2:2:44
So another question is, and this is coming from also a lot of my colleagues and friends who are experiencing same-sex attraction. So they tell me that, "Once we kind of go through this process of healing, and we realize the root causes of same-sex attractions, and we realize how the family dynamic was messed up. And we have all of those wounds from our mothers and our fathers and our siblings. We get to a point where we despise our parents, we hate them. And I just cannot move past that. I am trying to forgive, but I just can't." And a lot of them, unfortunately, have either cut ties with their parents or they're very passive. They're just neutral, and they're like, "I don't care anymore," and they're stuck at that point. And I know that you have spoken about the grieving and allowing this to be, you know, relieved and to go through all of the five R's, as you said. But what if the person is stuck and they cannot move past that point? How would they be able to navigate that?  

Richard:   2:3:51
So in response to someone who's stuck, they can't stand their parents. They're full of anger. They're full of rage, and they cannot move. What happened to you was because of other people. What you do from now on is based on your decisions. It's no longer your parents who were tormenting you. That's your sh*t. Those are your things. And if you're full of rage and anger and hurt, that's legitimate. And it's time now for you to poop or get off the toilet. Sh*t or get off the toilet. You need to release that hurt, that pain. As I said, you cannot do it alone. You need healthy mentors, to be there with and for you as you do it. So, affirmations will help, doing the cognitive work, "Ten Days to Self-Esteem", doing the inner child work... You've got to start releasing it. And you can't do it at once! Otherwise, all your synaptic connectors in your brain will split, and you'll die. So we have to go through it stage by stage by stage. That's why I wrote the four stages. So, I understand being stuck and hurt and pain. I was there too. You can do role play. Get a chair. Put your mother in the chair. So, you know, this is between you and her. Get it out, tell her, "Go to hell. I hate what you did. You b*tch!" Whatever. Blah, blah, blah. You get it out. Then after you've done that, you switch position. You sit in that chair and imagine your mother just heard all those things, respond as your mother to you, who just released all the pain. Let your mother speak to you. It can be how you want her to respond, or it could be how she generally and genuinely would respond. So then you listen to your mother, and then switch back. And you respond to what your mother just said. You can keep doing this to get it out. So do role play, Gestalt  work, to get your pain out. You could do the same thing with your father or your brother. Do the chair work, the role play. That can help you also detox. That's one simple tool, and everything else I talked about. So if you're stuck, that's your issue. You need to take responsibility. And there's many tools and techniques to help you move out of that.

Waheed:   2:7:04
In later episodes, hopefully in future seasons, we will be discussing the book, "Gay Children, Sraight Parents", because I really want to, hopefully, help parents navigate this with their own children. But just from from this forum, right now, in this episode, what messages would you like to give parents who are listening?

Richard:   2:7:29
Well, at the end of coming out straight, I do give a brief introduction to family and friends of those who experience SSA... Be compassionate. Be humble. Which means, you don't have to understand this at all. Our natural biological response, if someone comes out to us and says they have SSA, whether it be your son, your daughter, your husband, your wife, your brother, sister or your friend, the initial response will be, "YUCK!" which is a biological preservation instinct that comes from the limbic system, at the top of the spine and the base of the head. And this is the fight, flight or freeze response to those people or behaviors we don't understand. So a natural reaction is prejudice. Prejudice is not a thought. It's a feeling. So don't beat yourself up, if you think this is disgusting. So that will be perhaps your first reaction. And that's OK. That's human. Then, you listen to your child. You listen to your sibling. You listen to your friend. "Ahhh!" That will calm down that preservation, biological, repulse instinct, and then you will learn to feel compassionate for him or her just by listening. So here's a simple listening skill: "Thank you, Richard. Tell me more." So they're sharing and sharing and you just keep saying, "Thank you. Tell me more." And if they say, "Are you patronizing me? Are you just placating me?" You can say, "No, I just want to understand you. That's why I'm saying this", which is genuine and true, if that's what you think and feel. So be kind to yourself with, I call it the "yuck factor", that's what I write in the "Gay Children, Straight Parents" book, when you feel disgusted, like you think about your child having sex with another man - a guy with another guy or a woman with another woman - and I say get rid of that thinking, because they're both little boys looking for the same thing, that neither one has experienced, which is why the relationships can't work. Because two minuses equal a bigger minus. So get rid of the sex thinking and just listen. And then, fathers, step up. Be there more for your son. Mothers, step up, be there more for your daughter. Opposite-sex parent, go into the back seat, learn to keep your mouth shut or be a bridge, because the son is used to going to the mother. So she has to say, "Oh, sweetie, talk to your father." She needs to be a bridge between the son and the dad, and keep bringing him to the father. The father needs to be a bridge with the daughter, "So go talk to your mom." In my 33 years, 99% of the time, if a mother calls, who do you think - which child experiences SSA with the mother calling?  

Waheed:   2:11:11
The boy.  

Richard:   2:11:13
99% of the time, that's the case. 99% what if the father calls?  

Waheed:   2:11:19
The girl.  

Richard:   2:11:20
Yeah! It's so clinical. So we have to help the same-sex parent bond with the child and the opposite-sex parent take a back seat. Of course, in the "Gay Children, Straight Parents" book, there's 11 steps, 11 principles that I teach how the parents can do, and siblings and friends the same things. Learn to listen and they will be, I say the three L's: Listen, Learn and Love. And if they're in a relationship with somebody of the same sex, don't worry. You will be the last one standing. So the theme of the "Gay Children Straight Parent" book is: This is a battle of love, and whoever loves the most and the longest wins. So even if they're in a same-sex relationship, you can help break it up. Not by your words, but by your actions. Love your son, love his partner. I know for many parents, they wanted to throw up. That's fine. You go throw up on your own, then you love your son and you hug and embrace the partner. It'll mess up the mind of your son. And it doesn't mean you're endorsing or approving of it, cause many say, "Oh, then he'll think I approve of it." He knows what you believe, so don't worry about it. And if he says, "Have you changed your mind? You think it's right?" I tell the parents, "Smile and say no", but they have to do it with a smile. And that's the Love of God. God doesn't always approve of what we do, and God always loves us. So that's basically what I share. Of course, there's many other things, but that's kind of the essence.

Waheed:   2:13:08
The last question is, I know that a lot of my friends and colleagues, and a lot of the people listening throughout the world are huge fans of yours, and some people might be listening, and this is the first time that they're exposed to Richard Cohen and to his books, and I encourage everyone to go and read "Coming Out Straight". I will put links to the book as well as all of the other books that you mentioned in the episode description.

Richard:   2:13:39
Actually, "Coming Out Straight" is still on Barnes and Noble, not on Amazon, they kicked it off because off LGBT activists. So it's on our website, the PATH website (pathinfo.org).

Waheed:   2:13:54
Thank you. So if anyone wants to get in contact with you and in touch with you, what is the best way to do that?

Richard:   2:14:03
Through e-mail: rcohen(AT)pathinfo.org

Waheed:   2:14:16
Perfect. And you have the organization, "Time, Touch and Talk", right?

Richard:   2:14:20
Right. So two: PATH is Positive Approaches To Healthy Sexuality. Actually, it was incorporated 17 years ago, originally as Positive Alternatives To Homosexuality. But because of the political climate we're living in now, we changed the name to Positive Approaches to Healthy Sexuality. So the website is (pathinfo.org). And then, I wrote as I told you, the "Healing Heterosexuality: Time, Touch and Talk" book. That's my new child.

Waheed:   2:14:53
Can't wait to read that!

Richard:   2:14:54
Yeah! It's my.. like for Michelangelo, his Statue of David or the Sistine Chapel, or Da Vinci's Vitruvian Man. This is my final masterpiece of love. So, we developed (timetouchandtalk.com). So that's for the new book, and that's for the healing of all humanity. This is their road map of recovery. So those are the two websites we have.

Waheed:   2:15:37
I would like to end this episode with any last words that you would like to give the listeners.

Richard:   2:15:44
Sure. I love you very much. I understand you're hurt. I understand your pain. I understand perhaps your despair and hopelessness. I have lived it. I'm with you. Allah is with you and you will heal. You will resolve, because that's God's will. And this is temporary. You're just on a little island called SSA. It's not defining who you are. It's just that some of your experiences led to these desires. I promise. If you work through your issues and get the support and love of others, you will come out the other side and fulfill your dreams. God loves you. I love you. And I believe in you, inshaAllah.

Waheed:   2:16:51
God bless you, you too. We love you. We thank you so much for your time. This has really been exquisite 2.5 hours. I thank you so much for giving me the time and for allowing me to speak to you. This is the first time that I speak with you. I've been gushing the entire time, and I've been trying to control my emotions. Thank you so much for being a wonderful guest on this podcast series. Thank you for all of your efforts. God bless you and protect you and your wonderful family. And I would like to urge everyone to send lots of love and prayers to Mr. Richard Cohen, whenever you have the chance. Thank you so much for everything and thank you for your time.  

Waheed:   2:17:42
And with this we have come to the end of today's episode two. Thank you so much for listening. And I really hope that you have found this episode to be helpful, uplifting and rewarding. I have personally learned so much, and I am so grateful to have had this wonderful chance to speak to Mr. Richard Cohen and to speak to you, all of you. I will upload links to all of the resources that have been mentioned in this episode, in the episode description, so make sure you check that out. I would just like to say that the website (awaybeyondtherainbow.buzzsprout.com) always has the episodes as well as all of the transcripts and the chapter markings, and you can always share and subscribe to the website itself. I know that a lot of apps, different applications, depending on what you use to listen to this podcast, may or may not be able to show the links or the transcripts themselves. So the best way to have an access to everything is through the website. A couple of announcements. So, as I've mentioned, this is the 12th and the last episode of this first season. So far, it's been quite a journey, during these 12 episodes. We have touched upon so many relevant themes, some of which have been very deep and very emotional. We have talked about shame and vulnerability and courage and connection. We have spoken about the gay identity, and we have analyzed that critically. We have also touched upon the roles of the media and pop culture, some popular misinformation that's circulating, a little bit of history, a little bit of politics here and there. We've also talked about the genesis of same-sex attractions in detail, from genetics and temperamental predisposition, to family dynamics, the relationships with the father, the mother, the siblings, defensive detachment and reparative drive. We've also touched upon poor peer relations, inferiority complexes, abandonment issues as well as body image wounds and the role of abuse, particularly sexual abuse. We have also revisited shame in the context of detachment, true and false selves as well as narcissism, and we spoke about assertion and how healing is possible through vulnerability, humility, opening up and shedding shame, and uncovering one's true self through self-compassion, empathy and vulnerability. We have also touched upon the concept of the gray zone and homosexuality being a repetition compulsion, and the trigger to sexually act out and how to handle that from a personal perspective and a therapeutic perspective. We have also talked about female homosexuality as opposed to male homosexuality; as you have seen, there are a lot of similarities, but also a lot of unique differences. In episode 11, we talked about reintegrative therapy, and in this episode we talked about a comprehensive and holistic approach to healing and growth and dealing with same-sex attractions. In the next season, inshaAllah, we will be diving into other topics such as support systems, the role of support in one's life, the importance of self-care: spiritual, physical, emotional, and social self-care. We will also have a series of episodes discussing the big and intricate topic of marriage and celibacy. We'll also be talking about sexual health, masturbation, sex and porn addictions, and we will revisit the topic of sexual abuse as well. We will also be talking about codependency, anger management issues, and we will have so many co-hosts and guest speakers, inshaAllah, like we did in this season, and we will also have a guest story like we did in episode six, when brother Sinan came and shared with us his story. In order to discuss all of these things, we are going to take a break for some time, because Ramadan is coming up, and in order to prepare for all of these episodes. The first episode of season two is, inshaAllah, going to air on Friday, July 3rd of this year, inshaAllah. If you have any comments and any suggestions on the topics that I have mentioned that are going to be presented, inshaAllah, in season two, or if you have any ideas that you would like us to discuss further, any suggestions, any comments, anything that you would just like to tell me about, or if you would like to share your own personal story, or if you just wanted to say your salams and hellos, feel free to email me any time on: awaybeyondtherainbow@gmail.com. I also have another announcement with regards to these Straight Struggle Yahoo Group, which is an online support system for Muslims who struggle with same-sex attractions. Recently, there has been a move to a different platform known as Discord. It is an online platform also available in the form of mobile applications. This shift has happened over the past couple of weeks, and it is a more interactive platform. There is more real time interaction, so many forums available, so many topics that are being discussed, and there are also lots of resources available there. It's a wonderful community of Muslim men and women who experience same-sex attractions who want to live a life true to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and Islam. So for anyone who would like to join this support group, I will also add a link to it in the episode description, inshaAllah. This is the last Friday before the Holy Month of Ramadan. I would like to extend my warmest regards to you and your families and your loved ones. Ramadan this year is going to be a special Ramadan, subhan Allah, with what is happening around the world with the coronavirus and the mosques, places of worship and places of congregation being closed. It is very important to remind ourselves and remind each other that it is a Holy Month. It is a Blessed Month, and it is a Month of multiplied blessings, alhamdulillah. There are so many wonderful opportunities to be with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, to please Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, even if we don't have access to go to the mosque. As we know, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is not confined to a specific place. And what matters ultimately is how we connect to Him and the state of our hearts. So let us take this as an opportunity to reconnect with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, even within the confines of our home, to reach out to Him, to reach out to our families and our loved ones, and try to reach out to our communities. There are lots of opportunities nowadays within the Muslim communities, a lot of organizations that are helping our communities online or on ground, so we can use that as an opportunity to support them during the Holy Month, inshaAllah. So what I would like to say is, for now, let us focus more on what is ahead of us, inshaAllah. Let us take this as an opportunity to purify our hearts, to purify all of our senses, and to connect back to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and to connect to people in meaningful ways. I wish you and all of your loved ones a very blessed and fruitful Ramadan. May Allah bless you, may Allah shower you and all of your loved ones with His mercy and love and compassion and forgiveness. And may we have a very transformative Ramadan that will change our lives to the better inshaAllah, as individuals and as communities. And may we come out of Ramadan much better than before, transformed mentally, physically, spiritually and emotionally. And may we help each other heal and grow and help the world heal as well, inshaAllah. Taqabbal Allah ta'atakom [may Allah accept all of your good deeds], and may Allah reward you immensely. As I said, I would love to hear from you, please reach out through the email: awaybeyondtherainbow@gmail.com, and please stay in touch. And I look forward to talking to you again in the first episode of the second season on Friday, July 3rd, inshaAllah. This has been Waheed Jensen in "A Way Beyond the Rainbow", assalamu alaikom wa rahmatullahi ta'ala wabarakatuh.